(January 21, 2011 at 10:52 am)Watson Wrote: You could say the things I see now are coincidence, but I would counter that things have worked out too well to be mere coincidence. Faith reveals to a person the things that they miss without it. The serendipitous moments, the thoughts drifting in and out, the heightened state of cosciousness...it's all part of the process. And those without faith miss out on it sorely. Very sorely.

And those that believe in religion miss out on the freedom to think for yourself, rather than follow the dictations of people long past, the freedom to appreciate the true beauty of the universe without fear of the unknown.

(January 21, 2011 at 12:20 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote:

(January 21, 2011 at 10:52 am)Watson Wrote: If I am unhealthy and I'm sick inside...why do I feel better than I've ever felt before?

What's that got to do with truth?

A lot.

Quote:

Quote:You could say the things I see now are coincidence, but I would counter that things have worked out too well to be mere coincidence.

That is not an argument.

Why not? How about you also refute the rest of my argument, instead of small portions of it that you are capable of picking at?

Thor Wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have no "faith" at all and my life is pretty damn good. In fact, when I think back on some of the rougher patches in my life, they took place when I was a believer and had "faith".

I never said that you, or any one else without faith, does not have a 'damn good' life. But just because you went through rough patches while you were a believer does not mean you went through those rough patches because you were a believer.

My commentary on those without faith is in regards to a person without faith's conduct in life and how it affects the choices they make and the way in which their life turns out as compared to how it might turn out if they were to find faith.

Quote:I'm also not "missing out" because I get to sleep in on Sunday and save 10% of my income!

Hey! So do I!

(January 21, 2011 at 12:05 pm)prayer warrior Wrote: I must say Watson, that my 'testimony' is the exact opposite. A life of faith made me arrogant, and unwilling to OBJECTIVELY communicate with individuals of a different philosophy.

Then perhaps you should have spent more time considering and examining your own faith.

Quote:I also said/did things that i am now ashamed of, and my morality was actually retarded by biblical ethics.

Or perhaps your own perception of morality was retarded by a misunderstanding of Biblical ethics. Not all who claim to have faith actually have faith, and none who have faith are perfect. It's all a matter of who you are and who you strive to be.

Quote:Losing faith is the best thing that ever happened to me!

I doubt it.

(January 21, 2011 at 12:31 pm)Ashendant Wrote: And those that believe in religion miss out on the freedom to think for yourself, rather than follow the dictations of people long past, the freedom to appreciate the true beauty of the universe without fear of the unknown.

Do not assume things of me. On the contray, I have come to all of my own conclusions, and accepted religion merely because I have found that it is synonymous with most of my own beliefs in the first place. I sought God, not religion. I happened to find both.

Quote:The serendipitous moments, the thoughts drifting in and out, the heightened state of cosciousness...it's all part of the process. And those without faith miss out on it sorely. Very sorely.

Smoke a phat hooter and you get the same effect. Self delusion would be the cheaper drug of choice but I take solace knowing the heightened awareness of serendipity, the 'flighty' thought process, my heighted state of conciousness was/is voluntarily chemically induced and not the result of an overabundance of a catecholamine neurotransmitter brought about by convincing myself my fantasy is reality.

By no means does it make me an expert but I spent approx. 15 years as a Psychiatric Therapist Assistant for the Texas Dept. Of Mental Health and Mental Retardation.
The clients I worked with who were convinced "God" was the talking fish that came out of the manhole once in awhile, all reported the same "heightened awareness" of the universe. Serendipitous moments were acts of this 'God'.

You reporting these 'symptoms' only served to convince this reader you have throughly convinced yourself these mythical fantasies are actual reality.

Glad that works for you. Wait.... no, apparently that didn't work for you as you find it necessary to foister that belief on others.

(January 21, 2011 at 10:52 am)Watson Wrote: Without faith; I found myself arrogant, unwilling to communicate with others, and lacking confidence. In hindsight, I look back and find that I was not a good person. I did things and said things that I would not do now, and find that I was morally reprehensible in my actions. Lacking confidence, I was spineless and lashed out at a lot of people in my life who cared about me. I did not trust anyone. I went through life blind to a lot of different things in this world.

After finding my faith; I have found my confidence again, along with a deeper meaning and serendpitiy that was there all along. I am more conscious and aware of what I do now, and although that means I often face pain and fear greater than what I faced before, I say bring it on. I am stronger and more aware for dealing with it than I was before. Rediscovering my faith was possibly one of the best things to happen to me in my 17 short years here in this life. It has brought me back into a state of mind I had forgotten existed. If I am unhealthy and I'm sick inside...why do I feel better than I've ever felt before?

You could say the things I see now are coincidence, but I would counter that things have worked out too well to be mere coincidence. Faith reveals to a person the things that they miss without it. The serendipitous moments, the thoughts drifting in and out, the heightened state of cosciousness...it's all part of the process. And those without faith miss out on it sorely. Very sorely.

Sounds like you were a bit of a dick and grew out of it.

I too was a bit of a dick when young and beautiful but I grew out of it,(and the beautiful bit too, mores the pity)

(January 21, 2011 at 10:52 am)Watson Wrote: Without faith; I found myself arrogant, unwilling......... to communicate with others, and lacking confidence. In hindsight, I look back and find that I was not a good person. I did things and said things that I would not do now, and find that I was morally reprehensible in my actions. Lacking confidence, I was spineless and lashed out at a lot of people in my life who cared about me. I did not trust anyone. I went through life blind to a lot of different things in this world.

After finding my faith; I have found my confidence again, along with a deeper meaning and serendpitiy that was there all along. I am more conscious and aware of what I do now, and although that means I often face pain and fear greater than what I faced before, I say bring it on. I am stronger and more aware for dealing with it than I was before. Rediscovering my faith was possibly one of the best things to happen to me in my 17 short years here in this life. It has brought me back into a state of mind I had forgotten existed. If I am unhealthy and I'm sick inside...why do I feel better than I've ever felt before?

I doubt it. (<--borrowed one of your retorts there)

I could with all honesty tell the same story with just a few minor changes, so few and minor that you may have trouble spotting them.


"With faith in the christian God; I found myself arrogant, unwilling to communicate with others, and lacking confidence. In hindsight, I look back and find that I was not a good person. I did things and said things that I would not do now, and find that I was morally reprehensible in my actions. Lacking confidence, I was spineless and lashed out at a lot of people in my life who cared about me. I did not trust anyone. I went through life blind to a lot of different things in this world.

After ash-canning faith; I have found my confidence again, along with a deeper meaning and serendpitiy that was there all along. I am more conscious and aware of what I do now, and although that means I often face pain and fear greater than what I faced before, I say bring it on. I am stronger and more aware for dealing with it than I was before. Ditching my faith was possibly one of the best things to happen to me in my 17 short years here in this life. It has brought me into a state of mind I had not known existed. Why do I feel better than I've ever felt before?"

(January 21, 2011 at 2:12 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Sounds like you were a bit of a dick and grew out of it.

I too was a bit of a dick when young and beautiful but I grew out of it,(and the beautiful bit too, mores the pity)

Awwww, at least you got the chance to be beautiful! I'm not the best lookin' guy, my friends can tell you that.

Dotard/Watson Wrote:I went through life blind to a lot of different things in this world.

So tell me. What is it that you now see in life, as an atheist, that you did not see before as a believer? And on the flip side, what is it that I(as a believer) must be missing now?

(January 21, 2011 at 11:03 pm)Watson Wrote: So tell me. What is it that you now see in life, as an atheist, that you did not see before as a believer? And on the flip side, what is it that I(as a believer) must be missing now?

That'll be the truth.

(January 21, 2011 at 11:03 pm)Watson Wrote: So tell me. What is it that you now see in life, as an atheist, that you did not see before as a believer? And on the flip side, what is it that I(as a believer) must be missing now?

The world is so much more awe-inspiring and incredible just the way it is, without supernatural myths. The idea of God 'poofing' everything into existence just to please himself is an insult to the universe.

I was a Christian in my teens, when I was depressed and confused. But my unhappiness wasn't because of being religious. I sought out religion because at the time, it was comforting, and I wanted easy answers to complex questions. Simple as that.

There might be nothing comforting about a massive, impersonal universe or the bloody evolutionary struggle to survive. But eventually you realize that you can't just suspend rationality in one domain because it feels good or makes subjective sense to you. The real 'truth' is out there for you to learn, not hidden away in some ancient book. Becoming an atheist opened my eyes; I've never been happier and I've never looked back.

(January 21, 2011 at 11:03 pm)Watson Wrote:

(January 21, 2011 at 2:12 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Sounds like you were a bit of a dick and grew out of it.

I too was a bit of a dick when young and beautiful but I grew out of it,(and the beautiful bit too, mores the pity)

Awwww, at least you got the chance to be beautiful!

I've known him since he was about 20 and trust me, beautiful is not the word to use. hock:

(January 21, 2011 at 1:01 pm)Watson Wrote: A lot. [to do with truth]

No. Having truth in the consolation that faith gives you doesn't equate to having truth in what you have faith in.

Quote:Why not?

It's not an argument because it's credulity/incredulity at an alternative.

Quote: How about you also refute the rest of my argument, instead of small portions of it that you are capable of picking at?

Everything else in your post depended on the two points that I criticized.