(February 6, 2011 at 8:48 pm)Ashendant Wrote: The military is neither shooting at citizens or each other, it's not a civil war it's a very big protest but not a civil war.

Which is how civil war starts. Like I said, civil war doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. It builds up. I'm not saying it is inevitable, but neither is it guaranteed that by staying in, the president is preventing civil war.

(February 6, 2011 at 8:48 pm)Ashendant Wrote: The compromise was that he would leave in September, after the constitution has been reformed, when the transition can move more peacefully.

Perhaps it will, but perhaps it won't. Neither of us live in Egypt. Therefore, we cannot comment about the people's ability to live peacefully under his "rule" until September. Who is to say that a reformed constitution will make things more peaceful, anyway? If people want him out, he should get out.

(February 6, 2011 at 8:48 pm)Ashendant Wrote: By that logic Obama is a dictator

When was the last riot concerning Obama leaving office? There is no civil unrest because of Obama being in office. The most violent protest against him probably took place on facebook. The United States isn't perfect, but we certainly don't have the same valid complaints that Egyptians do. If riots started happening everywhere because of something Obama did and the complaints were valid, he would be impeached.

(February 6, 2011 at 8:57 pm)Shell B Wrote: Which is how civil war starts. Like I said, civil war doesn't just pop up out of nowhere. It builds up. I'm not saying it is inevitable, but neither is it guaranteed that by staying in, the president is preventing civil war.

but educated Egyptians are saying that him leaving office prematurely will cause civil war

Quote:Perhaps it will, but perhaps it won't. Neither of us live in Egypt. Therefore, we cannot comment about the people's ability to live peacefully under his "rule" until September. Who is to say that a reformed constitution will make things more peaceful, anyway? If people want him out, he should get out.

Because a constitution can decide the power granted to the government and the rights of the people, i mean the espionage act is unconstitutional in America and was used to break it, but it's harder if you have court saying:
"fuck you, you can't do that"

Quote:When was the last riot concerning Obama leaving office? There is no civil unrest because of Obama being in office. The most violent protest against him probably took place on facebook. The United States isn't perfect, but we certainly don't have the same valid complaints that Egyptians do. If riots started happening everywhere because of something Obama did and the complaints were valid, he would be impeached.

The republican seats in the whatever americans call the parliament, showed that they are displeased, by your logic that people don't want him should oust him even trough it's in his legal right to stand for the remaining of it's 6 month terms, Egyptians tolerated him for 33 years, they can tolerate 6 more months and come up with a constitution that works(which i assume that takes power from the president)

Same reason why the prime minister in Iraq is planning to put a eight years limit term(or 2 elections) to the prime minister/president/whatever the iraqian have as a leader

Mostly because the power of my president is mostly symbolic, he has very important powers(dissolve the parliament, pass or reject laws, forgive crimes, enforce conscription in case of State Defence or War...), but he hardly ever uses them, which in my opinion is the ideal powers of the president[/quote]

Listen, I don't want to argue with you about the issues of a country that neither of us live in. I simply don't think either of us are in a position to say they are being unreasonable. They have to live with whatever hardships they are living with, not us.

(February 6, 2011 at 10:12 pm)Shell B Wrote: Listen, I don't want to argue with you about the issues of a country that neither of us live in. I simply don't think either of us are in a position to say they are being unreasonable. They have to live with whatever hardships they are living with, not us.

I made my opinion on the facts and i try to over-de-empathise when i try to form opinions, i'm not thinking in the short term i'm thinking in the long term, and if Mubarak is not lying, my opinion is based on that, it's unreasonable to want short term disaster over long term stability, to me the Egyptians protesters already won, now it's between keeping the victory or pass the line when you start losing.

A ultimate victory for the Egyptian people would be having a constitution that limits the powers of the president to much like the Portuguese president and limit it to 2 or 3 terms max, and the constitution having the universal declaration of human rights in it.

A man who trades his liberty for a safe and dreamless sleep, dosen't deserve the both of them and neither shall he keep. - Frank Turner.

That's the last line of a song called "sons of liberty". Sums it all up pretty nicely I think. The president needs to leave. The people who want him to go, know nothing short of him going will lead to what they want, if they compromise now what else will they have to compromise on?

Isn't that quote benjamin franklin's?

Similar. But I posted the Frank Turner one as the rest of the song also covers this whole situation very nicely.

(February 7, 2011 at 10:42 am)Skipper Wrote: A man who trades his liberty for a safe and dreamless sleep, dosen't deserve the both of them and neither shall he keep. - Frank Turner.

That's the last line of a song called "sons of liberty". Sums it all up pretty nicely I think. The president needs to leave. The people who want him to go, know nothing short of him going will lead to what they want, if they compromise now what else will they have to compromise on?

Does him need to leave now? they already won he's leaving in 6 months, his son is not taking the succession, and the constitution is going to be reformed to depower the president and give more rights to the people(if mubarak isn't lying), mubarak leaving now won't accomplish anything except leave a power vacuum that can be filled with extremists

Six months can be an eternity. It is clear that they do not trust him.

(February 7, 2011 at 12:02 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Six months can be an eternity. It is clear that they do not trust him.

some do not, some do, i already saw some Egyptians stating that they prefer if he leaves 6 months from now