I think, btw, that if the quran wanted to say that the bird was held up by the laws god put in place it would have done so.  It goes on at length about laws.  It chooses instead to say that the bird is held aloft, by god and nothing else, and this is a miraculous sign around which to rally ones beliefs.  Truth be told, the author didn;t know how the hell a bird flew.  It was miraculous to him..and so, probably an incredibly compelling connection to make.  

Just to discuss your "phenomena" more directly, lol.

(January 8, 2016 at 12:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Rhythm, you shouldn't trust either me or Quran words. You have no reason to at the moment.

Wait..why not.  Isn't it perfect?  Not a single flaw?  Filled with rational justifications? Don't you have compelling arguments?

(January 8, 2016 at 12:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I think, btw, that if the quran wanted to say that the bird was held up by the laws god put in place it would have done so.  It goes on at length about laws.  It chooses instead to say that the bird is held aloft, by god and nothing else, and this is a miraculous sign around which to rally ones beliefs.  Truth be told, the author didn;t know how the hell a bird flew.  It was miraculous to him..and so, probably an incredibly compelling connection to make.  

Just to discuss your "phenomena" more directly, lol.

Post #6 in this thread, (and others) already pointed out the scientific inaccuracies in the OP, btw.

I mean, the general rule sort of is,

If you're going to make a thread/paper/article etc. with a question in the title...
and the answer to the question is "No."...
don't make it amirite?

(January 8, 2016 at 12:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 8, 2016 at 12:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Rhythm, you shouldn't trust either me or Quran words. You have no reason to at the moment.

Wait..why not.  Isn't it perfect?  Not a single flaw?  Filled with rational justifications?   Don't you have compelling arguments?

But your not convinced it is. So why should you take as an authority? You have no reason to. You don't perceive it being true nor it's insights nor it's eloquence. You haven't studied it thoroughly or with a charitable attitude.

@ Joe

I noticed, but I think that particular surah cuts to the deepest level of the discussion Mystic is trying to have.  That it is factually incorrect is beyond argument, but also irrelevant.  The author believed this to be a sign.  It is an example of the phenomena to which mystic is referring..and also happens to be a part of the quran.

@Mystic

Quote:But your not convinced it is. So why should you take as an authority? You have no reason to. You don't perceive it being true nor it's insights nor it's eloquence. You haven't studied it thoroughly or with a charitable attitude.

Oh, is that why..and here I thought it had something to do with your failure to present an argument in it's favor?  So quick to blame another for your own failures, you lot.  It's my fault, and if it isn't my fault, it's a demons fault....but it's never your fault that you are fundamentally unconvincing, is it?  

(January 8, 2016 at 12:50 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 8, 2016 at 12:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Wait..why not.  Isn't it perfect?  Not a single flaw?  Filled with rational justifications?   Don't you have compelling arguments?

But your not convinced it is. So why should you take as an authority? You have no reason to. You don't perceive it being true nor it's insights nor it's eloquence. You haven't studied it thoroughly or with a charitable attitude.

LOL!!!   Mystic, that's exactly the same thing Funditard xtians say when we object to anything in their "Wholly Babble" book: "but, you didn't READ IT THE RIGHT WAY!!!"   
    I memorized the freaking damn book.  I will go to my grave with idiot bible verses stuck in my brain.  And for over 40 years, I treated it like it was oh-so-special.  
    And then I started studying science, and asking questions, and reading about the cosmos, and those questions started to get asked about the damn BOOK.  And when you simply start paying attention to what the book says, without that rose-colored filter of "special", you very quickly start asking yourself how you EVER thought it was "special".  The very idea that somebody thought most of those stories were suitable to teach to children makes me a little nauseous.   Genocide.  War.  Rape.  Murder.  Misogyny.  Xenophobia in spades.
    Geez, and the fundies want to ban the Harry Potter books from libraries?  Wow.

Oh, but I didn't READ IT THE RIGHT WAY.   I didn't assume GAWD wrote it, and hid super-special messages just for me in between the lines.

I know it's a hard trial. I once said I read Quran with bias to believe it's true. With that bias, a lot of it's structure, it's arguments, it's reasoning, I didn't perceive because I was happy with just believing in it.  Then I came across was seemed to be unsolvable problems. Then because of that doubt, I wanted to see what if there are more problems. Then I came across a lot.  It took me five years to sort out all the problems I came up with to me personally. And then even then I didn't believe in Quran due to solving these problems.

I am no authority. If you find flaws that are flaws to you in the Quran, I can't say to you they aren't flaws to you. I can say however they are not flaws to me. Whether they are actual flaws from an objective standpoint we have to agree to disagree or we can get into a discussion about it.

Likewise I can't represent Islam and say Islam denounces terrorism. I believe it does. That is my view. I can't say another person who holds terrorism is praiseworthy is not a Muslim. Everyone can then say so and so is not a Muslim for whatever reason they deem them going against their interpretation of Islam.

I'm no authority. However on these forums, I will share my reasoning, my perceptions, and have a dialogue. I hope I'm not too much of burden on you guys.

There we have it.  You don't actually give a shit about flaws in the quran, never did.  Who cares, though, we both knew better before you ever claimed that you did.  Our subject here, however, is the phenomena whereby people such as yourself believe in claims such as yours, that they perceive them to be signs. You asked how we might determine between "legitimate signs" and "manufactured signs", in essence. Well, I think the answer to that question has to begin with how -you've- done so. I doubt that the manner in which I assess such claims would be very useful to you.

(January 8, 2016 at 1:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I know it's a hard trial. I once said I read Quran with bias to believe it's true. With that bias, a lot of it's structure, it's arguments, it's reasoning, I didn't perceive because I was happy with just believing in it.  Then I came across was seemed to be unsolvable problems. Then because of that doubt, I wanted to see what if there are more problems. Then I came across a lot.  It took me five years to sort out all the problems I came up with to me personally. And then even then I didn't believe in Quran due to solving these problems.

I am no authority. If you find flaws that are flaws to you in the Quran, I can't say to you they aren't flaws to you. I can say however they are not flaws to me. Whether they are actual flaws from an objective standpoint we have to agree to disagree or we can get into a discussion about it.

Likewise I can't represent Islam and say Islam denounces terrorism. I believe it does. That is my view. I can't say another person who holds terrorism is praiseworthy is not a Muslim. Everyone can then say so and so is not a Muslim for whatever reason they deem them going against their interpretation of Islam.

I'm no authority. However on these forums, I will share my reasoning, my perceptions, and have a dialogue. I hope I'm not too much of burden on you guys.

Ok.  You are not a burden.  We may strongly disagree, but you are always well-spoken and polite.
And I'm probably going to be upset with myself for asking this, but SINCE you are polite (here goes) - - You admit, here, that you have problems with the Quran - - problems to the point that you have claimed atheism at some point.  You see many problems in the text and have issues with these.  
      If you hold it as a source of inspiration and wisdom, well and good.  If the angel Jibril was dictating the words of Allah to Muhammed over 23 years, and there was only one angel, one god, and one writer, why are there any problems with anything in the book?  Why isn't the book itself a shining, mind-blowing example of far-beyond-human-capability perfection?  And why in the world would Allah even bother hiding little messages INSIDE the text, that only people playing the correct little math game can find?