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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:18 pm
(This post was last modified: January 13, 2016 at 9:19 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 13, 2016 at 7:42 pm)AAA Wrote: You want me to explain how something can be outside time? I don't think I have an answer, but there are spacial and temporal dimensions. We 3D creatures can be outside of a 2D spacial realm. In a similar way, something could conceivably be outside of the temporal realm also. Not a great answer, but I don't see why it couldn't.
So, a thing that you don't understand, is in a realm that you can't tell if it even exists, and it does things in ways that you can't fathom, and somehow you think this has any explanatory power?!
And your entire reason you accept this, is because of some vague passages in a Bronze Age text of mythology.
Yeah, you're doing science alright. 
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:19 pm
(January 13, 2016 at 9:16 pm)AAA Wrote: There are very good reasons to think an intelligence did it, which you ignored.
People of reason do not ignore very good reasons.
Therefore, that should make you think twice about the reasons to which you cling and clearly assume are very good.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 13, 2016 at 9:24 pm by ApeNotKillApe.)
(January 13, 2016 at 9:01 pm)AAA Wrote: I watched it. They say nobody defines information. That is the specified order of nucleotide or amino acid characters that lead to a desired function. There are advantages that can arise from defective proteins in different environments. For example, bacteria that have deformed membrane proteins which can prevent certain antibiotics from entering the cell. They also can hardly get their food source from the environment, and are always outcompeted by the wild type (older) organisms with less mutations. The guy was incredibly biased, and some of the mutations he said were advantageous were not. We talked about the over-expression of certain genes leading to large muscle mass in my genetics class last semester. It gives them additional health problems with mobility and others. Same with bone density. There is a potential inverse relationship between bone density and agility and jumping ability. The other beneficial mutations likely are paired with some other negative side affect. Ask yourself why these supposedly new traits never evolved in the past? The same mechanism that led to such intricate structures as the ribosome can't lead to something as simple as more muscle?
They also go on to talk about how 95% of the genome is junk DNA, when this has been discredited thoroughly and excepted by most geneticists.
You admitted there are beneficial mutations at least, even if you had to dirty it with your supposition that they all come with some negative side effects. Can you tell me why God designed things that way? Why did he set things up so that mutation always causes harm in some way?
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:29 pm
(January 13, 2016 at 8:31 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quote:But why shouldn't I infer designer to the system I described?
Because it doesn't bear any hallmarks of design. It looks more like trial and error.
Boru
I disagree,
Ranting time:
which one looks like trial and error: Ribosomes and their multiple subunits that come together due to chemical specificity. The ability to move proteins throughout the cell based on their 5' caps and chemical specificity. The hundreds of specifically ordered nucleotides that lead to each protein. The neuromuscular junction. Neuron axons. Synapses. Peptidoglycan cell walls. Signal Transduction pathways. Transpeptidase. All 20 tRNA molecules and the corresponding enzymes that charge them. The ability to produce the chemicals needed to produce proteins and DNA. The enzymes needed for metabolic pathways. The periplasm of gram negative cells. Conjugation plasmids. The ability to integrate environmental DNA into their genome. Multidrug efflux pumps.
None of these are hallmarks of design in your mind????
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:31 pm
(January 13, 2016 at 9:21 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: (January 13, 2016 at 9:01 pm)AAA Wrote: I watched it. They say nobody defines information. That is the specified order of nucleotide or amino acid characters that lead to a desired function. There are advantages that can arise from defective proteins in different environments. For example, bacteria that have deformed membrane proteins which can prevent certain antibiotics from entering the cell. They also can hardly get their food source from the environment, and are always outcompeted by the wild type (older) organisms with less mutations. The guy was incredibly biased, and some of the mutations he said were advantageous were not. We talked about the over-expression of certain genes leading to large muscle mass in my genetics class last semester. It gives them additional health problems with mobility and others. Same with bone density. There is a potential inverse relationship between bone density and agility and jumping ability. The other beneficial mutations likely are paired with some other negative side affect. Ask yourself why these supposedly new traits never evolved in the past? The same mechanism that led to such intricate structures as the ribosome can't lead to something as simple as more muscle?
They also go on to talk about how 95% of the genome is junk DNA, when this has been discredited thoroughly and excepted by most geneticists.
You admitted there are beneficial mutations at least, even if you had to dirty it with your supposition that they all come with some negative side effects. Can you tell me why God designed things that way? Why did he set things up so that mutation always causes harm in some way?
Why did He design it well at the beginning? If He designed it so that it had plenty of room for improvement, then you would be complaining about poor design.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:32 pm
(January 13, 2016 at 9:19 pm)Kitan Wrote: (January 13, 2016 at 9:16 pm)AAA Wrote: There are very good reasons to think an intelligence did it, which you ignored.
People of reason do not ignore very good reasons.
Therefore, that should make you think twice about the reasons to which you cling and clearly assume are very good.
Do you consider yourself a person of reason? Or are you just siding with people like Dawkins who you think are people of reason?
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:34 pm
(January 13, 2016 at 9:32 pm)AAA Wrote: Do you consider yourself a person of reason? Or are you just siding with people like Dawkins who you think are people of reason?
I side with reason as much as other people who also side with reason. Dawkins is no exception despite your prejudice.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:34 pm
(This post was last modified: January 13, 2016 at 9:35 pm by ApeNotKillApe.)
(January 13, 2016 at 9:31 pm)AAA Wrote: (January 13, 2016 at 9:21 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: You admitted there are beneficial mutations at least, even if you had to dirty it with your supposition that they all come with some negative side effects. Can you tell me why God designed things that way? Why did he set things up so that mutation always causes harm in some way?
Why did He design it well at the beginning? If He designed it so that it had plenty of room for improvement, then you would be complaining about poor design.
I can complain about the terrible design of things as they currently are, there is plenty of room for improvement.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:38 pm
(This post was last modified: January 13, 2016 at 9:38 pm by ApeNotKillApe.)
Given the opportunity to redesign things, I wouldn't include an appendix that exists solely to get appendicitis.
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RE: Intelligent Design
January 13, 2016 at 9:40 pm
(This post was last modified: January 13, 2016 at 9:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I wouldn't have included heterotrophism..particularly in that it's apparent that autotrophism was an option - judging by all the autotrophs in the world. It's the single greatest source of misery and pain on earth for every animal capable of experiencing misery or pain.
Some design, some god.
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