(January 19, 2016 at 9:27 am)Mancunian Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business

Why is it your job to tell me what you believe? (a) I am not interested and (b) how's the pay?

And if you could come to me with some actual evidence to back up your claims instead of some nonsense books, I might give you the time of day.

The only thing the quran proves exists is the quran.

(January 19, 2016 at 5:06 am)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 4:16 am)Irrational Wrote: So whatever you want to do is not predetermined is what you're saying? If so, then it must be random. If not, then you''re saying they're predetermined. Either way, no absolute control for one's actions. Therefore, judgement from Allah to the fires of Jouhannam would be too fucking harsh, don't you think?

Well of course Allah knows what we will do, and of course we sin. But Allah tells us that He forgives again and again. So when we sin we repent to Allah and this shows that we fear our Lord because we know He punishes, but  also shows that we know we have a Lord that is Most Merciful and forgives sins. I'm not sure if you know the Islamic version of the Adam and Eve story. But til this day, because of his pride and arrogance, Satan has not repented to Allah and sought His forgiveness for disobeying Him. So if we don't seek Allah's forgiveness when we do wrong we can't just expect Him to forgive us. We have to want it for ourselves

See if you can spot the pattern.

"Well of course Jesus knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Yahweh knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Karma happens because we did something wrong in a prior life"

See the problem? Every religion makes up superstitious reasons as to why people do bad things.

I would suggest to you to consider there is no magic to life, nor is there a magic man in the sky pulling our strings. I would ask you to consider that WE are the ones doing it and that our behaviors, both good and bad are part of our evolution, not old myths.

The problem with "sin" while people promote it as a warning not to do bad things, which sounds nice on paper, in reality it is a very horrible concept. The books of Abraham assume your guilt at birth, even before you have made any mistakes. That basically teaches you to loath yourself as a default position even before you have made any mistakes.

Now, the real reason we try to avoid hurting others is evolutionary, not magical. We evolved with empathy so we can say without superstitious answers, "I feel bad when others do this to me, so I will avoid doing it to others". It allows us not only to avoid harm to ourselves, but allows us to seek cooperation with others.

I know you like the idea of a god existing, so do Christians and Jews, but those ancient religions do not reflect our modern understanding of our biological reality.

(January 18, 2016 at 7:15 pm)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 18, 2016 at 6:43 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: Either your allah is imaginary or is powerless, otherwise he would have made homosexuality impossible. Well there is a third possibility, he is the embodiment of pure evil to abominate something and then make it so people by their natuer are that thing (for example a gay man can no more stop being attracted to other men than I can stop being attracted to women). So how do you solve this conundrum, admit your god is powerless, admit he is evil or admit hw doesn't exist? And those are the only answers available, because you cannot call a godvwho forces people to do what he says is wrong good.

Again what u fail to understand is God gives us free will to do what we wish. He shows us what happens to certain people of past times with stories in scriptures(Bible and Qur'an). So on the topic of homosexuality, during prophet Lot's pbuh time in the cities of Sodom and Gomorah homosexuality was part of the lives of a big number of their population. Allah destroyed those entire cities after Lot pbuh warned the people to repent to Allah, change their acts or be destroyed. The people basically said "Tell ur God to bring on the punishment if what u say is true" so Allah gives us these examples of the past to let people know who are presently doing the same sins, about His power. So many homosexual people today know of the story of Sodom and Gomorah. However they still continue their homosexual acts basically saying "If God is gonna bring on the punishment let Him bring it on" Just like the people of Sodom and Gomorah said. So perhaps since so many homosexual people are mixed in society with morally correct heterosexual people, God won't destroy the innocent who are obeying Him, and may be holding the punishment for the wrong doers in the Hereafter. This not with just homosexuality but with all sins. But since we're on the topic of homosexuality that's what I am mostly speaking about

So what you're saying is that either allah is as powerful as a marshmallow. As I have said the only possible natures for your god given your description qre fake, powerless oe evil with no other possibilities available. Gotcha.

Sounds to me like god installed a substandard free will in us.  It doesn't seem to be able to "freely will" who we love, or our sexual orientation.   Are we going to be held accountable for allahs incompetence?

I tell you what, if he's as good at judgement and torture as he is at manufacturing free wills, I don't think I've got to worry about hell.

(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 4:58 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Why should anyone give a damn if it's immoral?  You just got through flapping your jaws about how your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Arab deity is going to judge everyone on Judgment Day.  So isn't it his job to punish people who disobey his rules?  Why do you want to act like a pompous busybody and do Allah's dirty work?  Is he incapable of doing his own judging and punishing?  

If someone wants to screw a king cobra that's his business, not yours.  Let Allah do his own judging and let you mind your own business.

You can't do that because Allah is just a figment of your imagination.  No one really believes he exists because if they did they would mind their own damn personal business and let him do his own job without interference.  It's for that reason why your deity is a fake.  Busybodies want to use some silly deity to impose their own version of morality upon the rest of the herd.

I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business

Yes you are judging others, if you weren't you wouldn't be crowing at us about what your fake idiot god is going to do with our nonexistent souls. You'd simply leave well enough alone.

(January 19, 2016 at 3:03 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 9:19 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: I think u totally miss my point. I'm not judging u or anyone else. My job as a Muslim is not to say ur doing wrong my job is to tell u what I believe in and how things will come. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I can't change u or anyone else. What ur judged on by God won't have a thing to do with me and vice versa. So as I said we have to speak our beliefs as Muslims but what everyone does or doesn't do is their own business

Yes you are judging others, if you weren't you wouldn't be crowing at us about what your fake idiot god is going to do with our nonexistent souls. You'd simply leave well enough alone.

Like all believers he doesn't trust his favorite deity to do the judging and punishing.

(January 19, 2016 at 10:03 am)Mancunian Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 9:27 am)Mancunian Wrote: Why is it your job to tell me what you believe? (a) I am not interested and (b) how's the pay?

And if you could come to me with some actual evidence to back up your claims instead of some nonsense books, I might give you the time of day.

The only thing the quran proves exists is the quran.

Well the reason its my job as a Muslim to speak the truth about my religion is so people all over the world who follow the false stereotypical views of Islam the media and terrorists spread about our religion, can know the truth. And the rewards or pay as u put it is the absolute best we can receive from our creator, the gift of Paradise where we shall have anything we desire for all eternity. But as I said I am just telling you my belief in Islam. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I all say to u is To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine. Good luck  my friend

---

(January 19, 2016 at 10:23 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 5:06 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Well of course Allah knows what we will do, and of course we sin. But Allah tells us that He forgives again and again. So when we sin we repent to Allah and this shows that we fear our Lord because we know He punishes, but  also shows that we know we have a Lord that is Most Merciful and forgives sins. I'm not sure if you know the Islamic version of the Adam and Eve story. But til this day, because of his pride and arrogance, Satan has not repented to Allah and sought His forgiveness for disobeying Him. So if we don't seek Allah's forgiveness when we do wrong we can't just expect Him to forgive us. We have to want it for ourselves

See if you can spot the pattern.

"Well of course Jesus knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Yahweh knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Karma happens because we did something wrong in a prior life"

See the problem? Every religion makes up superstitious reasons as to why people do bad things.

I would suggest to you to consider there is no magic to life, nor is there a magic man in the sky pulling our strings. I would ask you to consider that WE are the ones doing it and that our behaviors, both good and bad are part of our evolution, not old myths.

The problem with "sin" while people promote it as a warning not to do bad things, which sounds nice on paper, in reality it is a very horrible concept. The books of Abraham assume your guilt at birth, even before you have made any mistakes. That basically teaches you to loath yourself as a default position even before you have made any mistakes.

Now, the real reason we try to avoid hurting others is evolutionary, not magical. We evolved with empathy so we can say without superstitious answers, "I feel bad when others do this to me, so I will avoid doing it to others". It allows us not only to avoid harm to ourselves, but allows us to seek cooperation with others.

I know you like the idea of a god existing, so do Christians and Jews, but those ancient religions do not reflect our modern understanding of our biological reality.

U have to follow ur heart to what u believe is right my friend. To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine

I prefer to believe what is most likely to be real, given the available evidence. Emotions are not a reliable guide for this.

And I wouldn't want to be a Muslim even if Allah existed. But if you're a peaceful Muslim though, that is great, and I hope you continue to encourage other Muslims to be peaceful too. "Islam" is neither peaceful nor aggressive, it's just a vague collection of ideas. It's the individual people who are peaceful or aggressive, and that's what matters to me.

(January 20, 2016 at 5:27 am)Sheed1980 Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 10:03 am)Mancunian Wrote: And if you could come to me with some actual evidence to back up your claims instead of some nonsense books, I might give you the time of day.

The only thing the quran proves exists is the quran.

Well the reason its my job as a Muslim to speak the truth about my religion is so people all over the world who follow the false stereotypical views of Islam the media and terrorists spread about our religion, can know the truth. And the rewards or pay as u put it is the absolute best we can receive from our creator, the gift of Paradise where we shall have anything we desire for all eternity. But as I said I am just telling you my belief in Islam. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I all say to u is To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine. Good luck  my friend

---

(January 19, 2016 at 10:23 am)Brian37 Wrote: See if you can spot the pattern.

"Well of course Jesus knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Yahweh knows what we will do, and of course we sin"
"Well of course Karma happens because we did something wrong in a prior life"

See the problem? Every religion makes up superstitious reasons as to why people do bad things.

I would suggest to you to consider there is no magic to life, nor is there a magic man in the sky pulling our strings. I would ask you to consider that WE are the ones doing it and that our behaviors, both good and bad are part of our evolution, not old myths.

The problem with "sin" while people promote it as a warning not to do bad things, which sounds nice on paper, in reality it is a very horrible concept. The books of Abraham assume your guilt at birth, even before you have made any mistakes. That basically teaches you to loath yourself as a default position even before you have made any mistakes.

Now, the real reason we try to avoid hurting others is evolutionary, not magical. We evolved with empathy so we can say without superstitious answers, "I feel bad when others do this to me, so I will avoid doing it to others". It allows us not only to avoid harm to ourselves, but allows us to seek cooperation with others.

I know you like the idea of a god existing, so do Christians and Jews, but those ancient religions do not reflect our modern understanding of our biological reality.

U have to follow ur heart to what u believe is right my friend. To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine

I have no interest in being around for eternity, I can't think of anything worse.

I'm making the best life I can for myself and my family while I am here in the real world,  watching my children grow up is my paradise,
I will have no fear of death when my time comes, and will look back on a full, happy and unrestricted life.

(January 20, 2016 at 7:28 am)Mancunian Wrote:

(January 20, 2016 at 5:27 am)Sheed1980 Wrote: Well the reason its my job as a Muslim to speak the truth about my religion is so people all over the world who follow the false stereotypical views of Islam the media and terrorists spread about our religion, can know the truth. And the rewards or pay as u put it is the absolute best we can receive from our creator, the gift of Paradise where we shall have anything we desire for all eternity. But as I said I am just telling you my belief in Islam. I am not trying to change u or anyone else. I all say to u is To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine. Good luck  my friend

---

U have to follow ur heart to what u believe is right my friend. To u be ur way of belief and to me be mine

I have no interest in being around for eternity, I can't think of anything worse.

I'm making the best life I can for myself and my family while I am here in the real world,  watching my children grow up is my paradise,
I will have no fear of death when my time comes, and will look back on a full, happy and unrestricted life.

That's a beautiful vision to have but I have a question. If ur life is over after u die and u don't believe in any Hereafter how will possibly look back on ur life?