Is Quran the proof of God?

[Esquilax]

I believe you overestimate our friend's capacity to see the difference.

I believe there's one way to find out for sure, and that's to make it painfully clear to him.

[mr_j936]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Jp_XCvVto

This sheikh is using the quraan to prove that the earth is flat and does not spin around the sun, he was also trying to prove that muslims have brains too(his words not mine). Using evidence and quotes from the book. I think he only succeeded in proving the books is wrong.

[Brian37]

The koran is only evidence that humans wrote it. The bible is only evidence that humans wrote it. The Torah and Talmud are only evidence that humans wrote them. The Vedas are only evidence that humans wrote them.

None of them are evidence that magic is real or that a invisible sky wizard is real.

[Brian37]

This is what far too much of the Middle East does, and what political Islam hurts. To the Muslims reading this, you have freedom to make an argument for your god here, but she doesn't have the ability to dissent. You cannot justify what theocracies do.

https://en.iranwire.com/blogs/11713/6297...daily-news

[mr_j936]

I saw a sarcastic poster today that reminded me of this topic. It's in arabic so it is useless to post as is but it says:" the miracle of Darwin's book the origins of species, the word evolve was repeated 8 times, the word man was repeated 7 times and the word chimp(or monkey, can't tell) was repeated 8 times. And 8+7+8=23 the number of chromosomes in the Human cells. How could this miracle have occurred when Darwin died before genetics were discovered?

[The Grand Nudger]

Strange, because I can recite numerous books by Dr. Suess from memory.  Maybe you weren't aware of how easy that is because they don't allow any other books in your home.....or...what?

Your boy "Mo" didn't know "it"...there are a great many things that were beyond the ability of an illiterate salesman circa 600ad to have known.  Clearly, selling people bullshit was something he -did- know...and the explanation for that is hardly magical, let alone divinely so.

[ReptilianPeon]

First of all, welcome to the forum, torikul91! It's great to see another esteemed cosmologist here. I hope you enjoy your stay. There are several people from the Ummah on here already, and I'm sure you'll fraternize with them. I will now comment on each section of your post in order. All of my translations will be Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Now proof that this sentence does not mention BigBang. 
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
(Qur'an 21:30)

Let's break Quran 21:30 down. First of all, the part where it says:

"heavens and the earth were a joined entity"

I can see several problems with that wording. First of all, it's suggesting that the Earth has been separated from our universe. You seem to be implying (correct me if I'm wrong), that the word "heavens" here refers to our universe. And I get that, when people talk about "the heavens", they are often referring to the night sky (and therefore the universe).

However, the Earth is still located within "the heavens". An observer from another planet would see the Earth moving around in "the heavens". The Earth is still joined to our universe; it's within it. It never became separated as the Iyah wants us to believe. But I have more.

Secondly, we can refer to Quran 41:12, which further complications things. This is the Iyah which people know as talking about "seven heavens". You may have come across this interpretation of the Iyah. If not, just search "Quran seven heavens miracle"; loads of website should come up.

Quran 41:12 says this:
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

First of all, our universe is commonly understood to be just one "heaven", so which of the seven heavens is Quran 21:30 referring too? If it's all seven of the heavens that are referenced in Quran 41:12 then Quran 41:12 cannot be a miracle than mentions the layers of Earth's atmosphere, because if the heavens and the Earth are no longer a "joined entity", as Quran 41:12 claims, then the Earth would have no atmosphere. And, it follows that, all life would die. If this all sounds so confusing, then I hear you. It most certainly is.

Which leads neatly into my next paragraph: Where would we find these seven layers of our universe? How would we confirm the words of the Quran which say that the "(seven) heavens and the earth were a joined entity"? Think about that for a moment please. How can Quran 41:12 be referring to the atmosphere of the Earth, as it is often claimed, when Quran 21:30 is saying the Earth was separated from the "heavens"?


Here is Al-Jalalayn's Tafisr on Quran 21:30, confirming the seven heavens:

Have they not ([one may] read a-wa-lam or a-lam) realised, [have they not] come to know, those who disbelieve, that the heavens and the earth were closed together and then We parted them, We made seven heavens and seven earths — or [it is meant] that the heaven was parted and began to rain, when it did not use to do so, and that the earth was parted and began to produce plants, when it did not use to do so; and We made, of water, [the water] that falls from the heaven and that springs from the earth, every living thing?, in the way of plants and otherwise: in other words, water is the cause of such [things] having life. Will they not then believe?, by affirming My Oneness?

Al-Jalalayn must have thought that Quran 21:30 was also referring to the "seven heavens". Granted this is just one Tafisr, but we must remember that  Quran 21:30 is using the plural (it says heavens, not heaven) so, in my opinion, would be a fair conclusion to say that Quran 21:30 is referring to the seven heavens that Quran 41:12 mentions.

The story of Isra and Mi'raj, which I'm sure you know about, also references "seven heavens" by the way. And, just to add, the atmosphere of Earth has more than seven layers. So if the Quran is saying that the Earth has seven layers to its atmosphere it is incorrect on this.

How did prophet Muhammad (PBUH) known it at 1400 years ago? Where we only knew it nearly 30 years ago.

If you are referring to "heavens and the earth were a joined entity", then I have already commented on that statement. So we can move onto the next part.

Allah created every [living] creature from water. Some of them go on their bellies, some of them on two legs, and some on four. Allah creates whatever He wills. Allah has power over all things. (Qur'an, 24:45)

Pretty sure Allah created humans from clay (clay is only viewed catalyst for life and no lifeforms can really be said to be made from clay):

Quran 55:14 "He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,"

We know now that the all of the live things created from water. How did he known in the country where only has desert and rear to collection water. ???

How do you define "living"? Are Jinn living (for example, they were not created "from water")? Are angels living (created from light)? Is the Shaytan living (created from fire, if I remember rightly)? They were not created from water. In fact, nothing was created "from water". It just so happens that water is the most abundant resource on Earth, so the biosphere evolved to use water. It didn't have to be that way though.

Qur'an is not book of science it is for humanity.

Nothing to say about this other than it is your opinion. And you are entitled to your opinion. Yet you were just trying to demonstrate to readers that the Quran is a book of science, so I am a bit confused. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Qur'an is not book of science it is for humanity"?

Qur'an is the only one book which one can be full memorize in human brain part by part. There is no other books that possible to memorize fully by a human.

This is actually objectively not true. The Hindu Vedas have been completely memorized too, and have been traditionally been transmitted orally for the many thousands of years that they have existed (they came several thousand years before Muhammad). The United Nations recognizes this fact, and you can read about the many thousands of years old tradition of Vedic Chants in this UNESCO article. And also this Times Of India article "Rig Veda manuscripts in Unesco's heritage list". So it's clear that Quran is not to the only book to be completely memorized.

And, need I mention, the Vedas are actually several books? Memorizing the Vedas is, therefore, much hard than memorizing the Quran. And, as such, is a more impressive achievement.

[Esquilax]

Now proof that this sentence does not mention BigBang. 

I'm sorry, are you serious? You come in here and the first thing in your response is a blatant shifting of the burden of proof? We need to prove you wrong or else you're right by default?

Fallacies aside, it's actually quite trivial:

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? 
(Qur'an 21:30)

Since the Earth did not exist prior to the big bang, in no sense were the Earth and heavens joined. Something needs to exist before it can be joined to anything, and thus, this verse cannot be describing the big bang. Done.

Moreover, of course, nothing was "separated," because an expansion is not a separation, and again, what the verse describes cannot be the big bang because the Earth was not formed in that moment, but rather a second, distinct moment many, many years later. The formation of the Earth did not happen in the big bang, and so any event that describes that happening cannot, itself, be describing the big bang.

I trust you don't have any other lazy, burden shifting presumptions to make?

[IATIA]

Co-winky dink or not:


http://vid285.photobucket.com/albums/ll5...%20666.mp4

[ReptilianPeon]

Esquilax, you're answer is so much simpler than mine. Why didn't I think of that? It seems so obvious now: The Earth was not around at even a plank time after the big bang.