Quote:I do in fact know that Ali Ibn Abi Talib is the righteous successor after the Prophet (not to mention the Prince of the Believers)

That statement was a made on the Historum forum. The thread was quickly closed when some of our Muslim members became a little 'over wrought',which is a pity,as I hoped to learn something.

Was that Ali a relative of The Prophet? ( son-in- law(?) )

How does the poster know that Ali is the rightful successor for a fact? I though that was a controversial issue within Islam.(?)

Does the question refer to the schism between Shia and Sunni? IE Shia believing Muslim leaders may only come through the family line of The Prophet, Sunni that they must be elected? Or am I completely wrong?

DISCLAIMER: I ask this question in good faith, from academic interest only,not as a topic over which to argue.

(February 19, 2011 at 2:45 am)padraic Wrote:

Quote:I do in fact know that Ali Ibn Abi Talib is the righteous successor after the Prophet (not to mention the Prince of the Believers)

That statement was a made on the Historum forum. The thread was quickly closed when some of our Muslim members became a little 'over wrought',which is a pity,as I hoped to learn something.

Was that Ali a relative of The Prophet? ( son-in- law(?) )

How does the poster know that Ali is the rightful successor for a fact? I though that was a controversial issue within Islam.(?)

Does the question refer to the schism between Shia and Sunni? IE Shia believing Muslim leaders may only come through the family line of The Prophet, Sunni that they must be elected? Or am I completely wrong?

DISCLAIMER: I ask this question in good faith, from academic interest only,not as a topic over which to argue.

Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the cousin and son in law of the prophet Muhammad. The descendants of him according to Shia Muslims are the rightful successors to the office of Caliph (Ruler of all Muslims). To cut a long story short the last legitimate successor to Ali, was young boy whose body was never found and that has led to the myth of a hidden Iman who will come back at the end of time.

The Sunni disagree with the Shia on this particular issue and this has led to a lot of conflict between both sects.

(February 19, 2011 at 3:41 am)ziggystardust Wrote: a hidden Iman who will come back at the end of time.

I've heard something similar before, now what was it?

(February 19, 2011 at 5:59 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 19, 2011 at 3:41 am)ziggystardust Wrote: a hidden Iman who will come back at the end of time.

I've heard something similar before, now what was it?

It is very similar to the assertion that Christians make that Jesus was assumed into heaven and will return at the end of this world.

Quote:The question of Ali's right to succeed to the caliphate is an article of faith which divided the Muslim world into two great sects, the Sunni and the Shi'a. The Sunnis believe that the prophet chose Abu Bakr to be the first caliph, while the Shia believe that he chose Ali and announced it in public in Ghadir Khum. Whatever the case, Ali did not challenge Abu Bakr or any of the later caliphs, rather he served as an advisor to them.

Ali is greatly respected by all Muslims, both Sunni and Shi'a. The Shi'a in particular venerate him as second only to the prophet. They also celebrate the anniversaries of his martyrdom and birth; the Shia version of the adhan also includes an explicit reference to Ali. Ali is described as a bold, noble and generous man, "the last and worthiest of the primitive Muslims, who imbibed his religious enthusiasm from companionship with the prophet himself, and who followed to the last the simplicity of his example."

In the eyes of the later Muslims he was remarkable for learning and wisdom, and there are extant collections of proverbs and verses which bear his name: the Sentences of Ali. The most famous collection of Ali's speeches and letters is the Nahj al Balagha meaning "The peak of eloquence."

Source/Article: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ali_ibn_Abi_Talib

Quote:The Sunni disagree with the Shia on this particular issue and this has led to a lot of conflict between both sects.

Ah thank you,that's about what I thought..


Historum Forum has some rather dogmatic Muslims. My friend you are a Liberal progressive in comparison. I would not dare disagree with those people in person. They might hurt me.



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Another question,if you don't mind,something which confuses me.

I lived in Malaysia,a Muslim country since the 12th century,where Sunni Islam is the State religion. I had some good Muslim fiends,in a local kampong,and had some nice chats with the revered village Hadj. These were devout people. I was accepted as a person of The Book, and always treated with great respect, wonderful hospitality, and kindness.

My question: The Qur'an seems quite specific about People of The Book (Jews and Christians specifically although the term is contentious) AND their status under Sharia law as Dhimmi.


BUT throughout parts of Islam,there is a deep and abiding hatred of both Jews and Christian, EG at present the murder of Christians in Iraq has become an international scandal.

It is my observation that very good people can be led to do evil things in the name of religion.Do you know off hand some of the sura and Hadith used by extremists to justify anti Jewish and anti Christian acts?

This is not an attack on Islam. I really want to understand the mindset of such people. Because of my own experiences with Islam and Muslims, I do not see the religion as evil or even innately violent. I think those perceptions probably come from cherry picking the Qur'an and a misunderstanding of the word 'jihad'.(struggle)

(February 19, 2011 at 6:48 pm)padraic Wrote: This is not an attack on Islam. I really want to understand the mindset of such people. Because of my own experiences with Islam and Muslims, I do not see the religion as evil or even innately violent. I think those perceptions probably come from cherry picking the Qur'an and a misunderstanding of the word 'jihad'.(struggle)

I see that you made another thread for this before I had a chance to reply.

So, I'm going to post my comments in that thread which is here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-6104.html

Why?? Rayaan they are two different topics???

Yeah, they're two different topics. But I wanted to leave a comment in this thread anyways.