(January 29, 2016 at 11:11 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Thumpalumpacus Wrote:Sounds like a right cunt, doesn't look like his alleged NDE changed him very much at all -- assuming he's not lying about it to massage his market, which seems to be the case.

"Paints with a God state of mind"? Nothing says art like preconceived constraints. The dumbfuck clearly doesn't understand art or spirituality.

The testimonials that I would like to hear would be from people who know him and can tell us what he was really like before his experience, and if he's really changed. It has no bearing on the nature of NDE's, but does bear on whether he really had one or is just marketing a book.

Yes, I would like to hear some real testimonials too. I wonder how his wife reacted to it? Assuming she was an atheist like him when this happened, how did she react to his sudden change?

(January 29, 2016 at 11:14 am)Old Baby Wrote: Every atheist I've ever really known can be put into one of two categories.

1. Person who does not believe for rational reasons.

2. Person who does not believe for emotional reasons.

The first part of this NDE testimony describes an individual who fits into category #2.  

People who are driven by their emotions really all go in the same category, whether they wear the label of theist, atheist, anti-theist, etc.  Their methodology for determining what is most probable is not based on evidence or rational thought, but on emotion and subjective experience.  That's why I don't find the testimony of Christians who were saved from atheism very compelling, and ultimately why I'm not persuaded by Howard Storm's experience.

How do you know he was led by emotions? It doesn't say anything about any sort of bad experience he has with religion that made him this way. He just sounds like a very skeptical person.

scoobysnack Wrote:Yes, he was not declared clinically dead, but that doesn't mean much. There's no evidence proving the crimes I committed and got away with as a youth, yet I can promise you they still happened. I'm far from a perfect person, and I know that no one can claim to be. Another aspect is perception of time, which is vastly different than how we measure it in the material world. One day equaling a rotation of the earth is only relevant to those on earth.

If you say you committed crimes as a youth and weren't caught, I'll take your word for it. If you say you murdered an alien from Tau Ceti as a youth, I'll need more than your word to accept that you actually did it. Claims carry differing weights a priori, based on what we already know. That's what differentiates ordinary claims from extraordinary claims.

I tied my shoes this morning. There's no reason not to take my word for that, because a) We all have experience with people tying shoes so we know it's possible; b) I gain nothing from lying about it, not even attention, because it's trivial; and c) It's so trivial that you can't possibly lose anything by taking my word for it, even though it's possible that I could, for some reason, be lying.

If you know more about me, that could adjust your weighting of the claim. For instance, if you knew me to be paralyzed, you would be justified in wanting to know more particulars before accepting my claim at face value.

A claim that any NDE is real contradicts what we already know about biology and physics. It's an extraordinary claim. We should be very skeptical concerning them unless and until the empirical evidence that it is not just something that sometimes happens in people's brains in certain circumstances. One of the things that is evidence that it IS something that happens in some people's brains in certain circumstances is that persons of different cultures and religion have NDEs that align with their expectations. Hindus might meet Ganesh while having an NDE, for instance.

No true atheist would believe in God. There, I said it.

Ok, I was trying to be funny, but I meant skeptic, really.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, it is a possibility but just seems unlikely that atheists would "dream up" visions of a good and loving God whom they want to be with, when they normally tend to feel hostility towards the idea of God and think He would be evil/uncaring if He did exist. It just adds to the weirdness of the whole thing I think. I certainly couldn't imagine it from any of you.

Why it seems unlikely? One could have weirdest dreams. Also one should ask if he really had such dream.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I still find it very unlikely that they'd all be straight up lying. Just knowing you guys here and how hostile you are towards religions and the idea of God, I would think it was very strange for any of you to turn your backs on that for the sake of writing a book and hopefully making money.

I see nothing unlikely in it. People lie and not always for reason which made sense for others. Possibility of profit could be big incentive to certain kind of people.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And even stranger still what this guy did. Not only did he write books about it (he could have just done that and stopped there), but he went as far as to quit his job and go to seminary school, become a pastor, and dedicate his life to Christianity. Could a strong atheist put on this whole charade??

Honestly I'd believe it was a somehow extremely convincing hallucination before I believed it was all a lie.

He was atheist or he only claim he was? And if he was then it does not mean that he is good guy incapable of lying.

Brain damage also is a possibility considering his alleged NDE.

Lol, the no true skeptic fallacy? 

(January 29, 2016 at 11:22 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 29, 2016 at 11:14 am)Old Baby Wrote: Every atheist I've ever really known can be put into one of two categories.

1. Person who does not believe for rational reasons.

2. Person who does not believe for emotional reasons.

The first part of this NDE testimony describes an individual who fits into category #2.  

People who are driven by their emotions really all go in the same category, whether they wear the label of theist, atheist, anti-theist, etc.  Their methodology for determining what is most probable is not based on evidence or rational thought, but on emotion and subjective experience.  That's why I don't find the testimony of Christians who were saved from atheism very compelling, and ultimately why I'm not persuaded by Howard Storm's experience.

How do you know he was led by emotions? It doesn't say anything about any sort of bad experience he has with religion that made him this way. He just sounds like a very skeptical person.

"...was not a very pleasant man by his own admission.  He was an avowed atheist and very hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it.  He would often use rage to control everyone around him and he didn't find joy in anything..."

That's not the description of a regular joe who just concludes that there's no rational reason to believe in God.  This describes someone who was hostile to the very notion of a supernatural deity and toward everyone who disagreed with him.  This is often how Christians who convert from "atheism" describe themselves.  He sounds more like a person who was either afraid/in denial or someone who hated religion because of something from their past.

I imagine he is capitalizing quite well on his supposed NDE.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:29 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, it is a possibility but just seems unlikely that atheists would "dream up" visions of a good and loving God whom they want to be with, when they normally tend to feel hostility towards the idea of God and think He would be evil/uncaring if He did exist. It just adds to the weirdness of the whole thing I think. I certainly couldn't imagine it from any of you.

Why it seems unlikely? One could have weirdest dreams. Also one should ask if he really had such dream.

Then on that we would just have to agree to disagree. It would be like me having a dream that Zeus was the true God or that the Devil was good or something lol. Possible? Yes. Likely? Not at all.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:29 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I still find it very unlikely that they'd all be straight up lying. Just knowing you guys here and how hostile you are towards religions and the idea of God, I would think it was very strange for any of you to turn your backs on that for the sake of writing a book and hopefully making money.

I see nothing unlikely in it. People lie and not always for reason which made sense for others. Possibility of profit could be big incentive to certain kind of people.

(January 29, 2016 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And even stranger still what this guy did. Not only did he write books about it (he could have just done that and stopped there), but he went as far as to quit his job and go to seminary school, become a pastor, and dedicate his life to Christianity. Could a strong atheist put on this whole charade??

Honestly I'd believe it was a somehow extremely convincing hallucination before I believed it was all a lie.

He was atheist or he only claim he was? And if he was then it does not mean that he is good guy incapable of lying.

Brain damage also is a possibility considering his alleged NDE.

Someone who is a staunch atheist all of a sudden quits his job, goes to seminary school, becomes a pastor, and dedicates his life to Christianity, all while still being an atheist inside? You don't find that extremely unlikely? Or strange at all? I guess we disagree on that as well, my friend.

Of course, there is the possibility that he *wasn't* an atheist. But if he was, then yes, very very strange.