(February 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 12:12 am)Aegon Wrote: What about hating religion makes someone a good person?

Anyway, I'm an atheist but I'm not an anti-theist. I am not against religion unless it leads to very harmful practices (ex: Sharia law.) People saying grace before they eat and attending church every Sunday aren't harming anybody and I have no reason to oppose what makes them happy.

There's nothing innocuous about talking to some imaginary patriarch which displaces the responsibility of the actual head of household for his own actions, especially when it involves children. What involves children implies child indoctrination of nonsense, and all nonsense ideas are potentially dangerous. The same when you take them to church, sit them down in front of some grisly crucifixion scene, make them sit through songs and tales told of the strange, the morbid, and the irrational.

If you were one of these children who later came to be liberated from the forced intellectual stagnation of religion, then you would understand just how right Hitchens was - religion poisons everything!

I'm not going to lie, I laughed reading this. Overdramatic much? Honestly, indoctrinating children into believing a religion is no different than indoctrinating them to be Republican or Democrat (assuming we're talking about your average Christian family who goes to church once a week but otherwise doesn't do much religious activity.) 

Also, I was one of those children - I'm not upset about it at all. My mother is Catholic, I was raised Catholic. We went to church every Sunday, I attended religion school to prepare me for communion and confirmation. I hated going to it, but I didn't hate it because "AGH I'M IN AN ANTI-INTELLECTUAL PRISON FUCK THIS RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION!!" I hated it in the same way I hated going to school. Otherwise it didn't bother me much. And then when I reached a certain age I decided I didn't believe any of it and that was that. Not a big deal in my opinion.

(February 1, 2016 at 7:36 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 5:26 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: There's nothing innocuous about talking to some imaginary patriarch which displaces the responsibility of the actual head of household for his own actions, especially when it involves children. What involves children implies child indoctrination of nonsense, and all nonsense ideas are potentially dangerous. The same when you take them to church, sit them down in front of some grisly crucifixion scene, make them sit through songs and tales told of the strange, the morbid, and the irrational.

If you were one of these children who later came to be liberated from the forced intellectual stagnation of religion, then you would understand just how right Hitchens was - religion poisons everything!

I'm not going to lie, I laughed reading this. Overdramatic much? Honestly, indoctrinating children into believing a religion is no different than indoctrinating them to be Republican or Democrat (assuming we're talking about your average Christian family who goes to church once a week but otherwise doesn't do much religious activity.) 

Also, I was one of those children - I'm not upset about it at all. My mother is Catholic, I was raised Catholic. We went to church every Sunday, I attended religion school to prepare me for communion and confirmation. I hated going to it, but I didn't hate it because "AGH I'M IN AN ANTI-INTELLECTUAL PRISON FUCK THIS RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION!!" I hated it in the same way I hated going to school. Otherwise it didn't bother me much. And then when I reached a certain age I decided I didn't believe any of it and that was that. Not a big deal in my opinion.

Maybe you also think some forms of priestly contact with alter boys are also "overdramatized"? Just because you don't understand the degree of mental abuse which takes place, even without sexual contact doesn't give you the right to mock those who still suffer from it - what an insensitive dolt it takes to be so dismissive of shit you really don't understand, and as a Catholic, you really have no understanding whatsoever of the sort of head job which evangelical Protestants do to children who are placed in their care.

I'll spell it out for you: Catholicism (which I understand much of through family tradition, and still experience for myself sometimes) is a ritualistic sect. It teaches faith (salvation) through the practice of certain rituals (sacraments, church attendance, and confession) above conceptual beliefs (other than the need to do these in order to gain heavenly favor for your mortal soul), which generally come secondary to those who are raised Catholic. It isn't like this in Protestant evangelical sects, where they teach ideas, and constantly drum in the terror of doubting said ideas.

I have been to enough Catholic services to know the difference, including those who were trained pre-John Paul, a generation which sent many offspring of Catholics away in disgust during the 1970's. They were very good at beating their chests as the gatekeepers for healthy souls, but even they did not discuss hellfire in graphic detail. They never really did start doing this shit for any period of time until the church began to schism badly enough for Protestant ideas to gain a toehold during the Spanish Inquisition of the late 15th Century, and when the Protestants seized that idea, boy did they ever fucking run with it! As a kid in an an evangelical Accelerated Christian Education program, I got to read of Protestant history, or at least as they tell it. John Wycliffe lists among their heroes, and he died in the 14th Century, which is a very long time before Martin Luther supposedly ushered in the so-called Protestant Reformation!

In sum, Catholics really don't understand squat of the head games which are played with childrens' minds. You may have known head games aplenty, and you may have heard plenty of stupid ideas, but you cannot have understood the emphasis on belief and the real terror of dire consequences from doubting what you were told by trusted authority figures, when the difference between burning in hell forever if you die tonight and not burning is not what you do in life, but what you believe is true when you know that you cannot believe such garbage. That, specifically, is what pushes kids to the edge of insanity! That is the kind of shit which I had to endure, and fuck you oh so very much for being such a blunt asshole about it here!

Wow. WOW. You are so not responding to what I was talking about. I already agreed organized religion and what it's used for is bad pages ago. I don't agree with the Church. And I obviously don't think the actual child abuse is overdramaticized and I think it should be taken seriously. You just added another level. My main point was not in reference to anything like that. The average Christian kid does not go insane from worrying if they will go to Hell. Religion is such an average part of some people's lives that it isn't even on their mind until Sunday rolls around. That's what I'm talking about. Religion does not have these sort of effects on the average family, is what I'm saying! I'm saying when there's no physical abuse and there's no really intense indoctrination (ala Mormonism) I don't think religion is harmful. I'll say it again: spending an hour at church every week and saying grace before meals isn't a big deal. If you wanna add this whole "kids literally go insane" angle to it, fine, but now you're adding another level that just isn't present in an average case.

(February 1, 2016 at 8:57 pm)Aegon Wrote: Wow. WOW. You are so not responding to what I was talking about. I already agreed organized religion and what it's used for is bad pages ago. I don't agree with the Church. And I obviously don't think the actual child abuse is overdramaticized and I think it should be taken seriously. You just added another level. My main point was not in reference to anything like that. The average Christian kid does not go insane from worrying if they will go to Hell. Religion is such an average part of some people's lives that it isn't even on their mind until Sunday rolls around. That's what I'm talking about. Religion does not have these sort of effects on the average family, is what I'm saying! I'm saying when there's no physical abuse and there's no really intense indoctrination (ala Mormonism) I don't think religion is harmful. I'll say it again: spending an hour at church every week and saying grace before meals isn't a big deal. If you wanna add this whole "kids literally go insane" angle to it, fine, but now you're adding another level that just isn't present in an average case.

A child who is more or less adaptable won't go insane when indoctrinated under conditions which you still don't happen to understand. I myself am not certifiably insane, but as one who has lived with high-functioning autism since birth, religion has contributed heavily to the severe depression which I have suffered for most of my life, and depression is not a typical symptom of the pre-existing condition. Religion does harm, and that is my point!

I did not say that any great proportions of children who are indoctrinated by evangelicals are made insane by this. But when at least 1 million out of 50 million children who are so indoctrinated begin with some form of mental or neuralogical disorder, and they are treated as if they are "possessed by demons" as I was, then just keep on posting and I'll show you some more just how ignorant you are of the negative impact this has on them!

Yes, being pressured into saying grace at the table or attending church is an abuse which invites more abuse against children, beginning with the dishonesty of the whole thing by trusted authority figures. Later in life, it becomes a trigger factor which they should not tolerate as adults just to fit in and "play nice". There are far more such children than you are aware of (or willing to consider) who will become seriously damaged by religious indoctrination, evangelical ruminations on the existence of a "personal relationship with Jesus", whatever the fuck they may choose to call it. The Christian doctrine teaches children who are already troubled and scared that they are born evil, and need to be "forgiven" by an angry bastard of a god with a Mafia don personality because they have angered him just by being alive! Indoctrinating kids with this shit is extremely destructive to the self-esteem of children who take it seriously, which is common with children who are vulnerable and therefore desperate - bully for you that you didn't take it seriously, Asshole! Religion which is forced on any developing mind = abuse!

Did I say that the indoctrination of children by evangelicals makes Americans stupid? More than 40% believe the Earth was created in six days, and those who believe that generally look to Ken Ham for their "science". The overwhelming majority of Americans don't know the difference between suggestion and empirical science, and are easily detracted from considering real science with pejoratives such as "sciencism" and "radical empiricism". So, does religious indoctrination make people obnoxiously ignorant? Does it make many others who are too smart not to know better pathologically dishonest? You decide, and while you're at it, see if this raises the number of a nation's citizens who are twisted under religious indoctination by any significant proportions.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to share the rest of my life with people who make decisions which affect me based on stupid religious bullshit. If your response to this situation is really one of "apathy", then I can't imagine why you even bother hanging out here.

It's the subtle knife.  Even when theistic organizations -aren't- engaging in institutional sexual abuse, a holiday from their usual shit, if you will......they're still creating and maintaining those concepts which have caused immeasurable harm for centuries.

I cannot understand how an institution like religion can cause so much harm to society when its core belief is to help.

(February 1, 2016 at 10:01 pm)Kitan Wrote: I cannot understand how an institution like religion can cause so much harm to society when its core belief is to help.

You have to keep in mind that no one is to blame here. It is what it is. We have to get rid of it though. I'm so sick of fucking people thinking religion will stick around forever. That is precisely why it might.

(February 1, 2016 at 10:01 pm)Kitan Wrote: I cannot understand how an institution like religion can cause so much harm to society when its core belief is to help.

I can understand it just fine.  The core belief of some christians may be to help, but the core directive of christianity as an institution has been to help itself.

(February 1, 2016 at 10:01 pm)Kitan Wrote: I cannot understand how an institution like religion can cause so much harm to society when its core belief is to help.

That is not the core belief of any religion. If it was, then it would be the core belief of all religious organizations which have influenced the societies of nations, and there would be far less conflict between them. For what that would be worth, there may be no religious differences at all.

The problem with religious institutions is that they are institutions first, where job security of the leadership always comes first. Therefore they bring people in through manipulative differentiation between them and the "others". They teach their followers that the good which is in them naturally depends not on who they are by nature, but on what they believe and practice. Ultimately, the believers are led to believe that only the help which they bring to society is really any good, while those "others" who do charity and other good deeds necessarily have some ulterior motive (like that even matters).

Teaching people that they can be helpful in society only if they believe follow a specific religion = something not very helpful at all.

(February 1, 2016 at 10:21 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(February 1, 2016 at 10:01 pm)Kitan Wrote: I cannot understand how an institution like religion can cause so much harm to society when its core belief is to help.

You have to keep in mind that no one is to blame here. It is what it is. We have to get rid of it though. I'm so sick of fucking people thinking religion will stick around forever. That is precisely why it might.

I hope it won't, and I will oppose anything that may help it stick around forever, but it must be understood that religiosity began as an unavoidable (or avoid-and-die) force of nature in our species. It may be an important reason why Homo Sapiens managed to out-live, or (more probably) kill off competing species of human such as Neanderthalensis, who you probably would not want as your neighbors today. People evolved to consider and voice questions regarding their existence and their place in the universe, and some among them evolved (some by hook and by crook, but they evolved) to be the sort who provide answers. It probably wasn't Terry Pratchett who first observed that a lie can go around the world before the truth can get its boots on, which couldn't be more the truth, just as it was with the answers which the first religious generations got for their questions. The problem is that most people prefer being lied to, when they are lies which simplify their lives.

As atheists and anti-theists on this site, there's very little in terms of action  which we could be united to work together on, and building stable kingdoms at the expense of non-sequitors and other, smaller groups is what eventually made it possible for humanity to re-evaluate the earlier answers which they were given, seek better ones, bring about inevitable civil wars and political terror over them, and all that was before anybody once even considered p-u-b-l-i-c-l-y evaluating the questions scientifically! The mobilization of minds which were made alike through religion is what built the foundations which eventually led to our ability to sip coffee and communicate via laptop or smaller, wireless devices today. Now here we are, awakened, but we don't even agree enough on whether theism should be actively opposed. We have traded the power of easy group rallying power which religious leaders and ideological leaders have for our intellectual honesty, and although this makes us better people, it puts us in a position which has not yet come to be politically advantageous with our species.

It is only now that the population has swelled to overwhelming numbers that our world is much too small for our lives to remain sustainable with continued discord over nonsensical religious ideas, and that our only chance that the majority of our species has of surviving for more than another decade or two into the future is through scientific progress, which we all need to collaborate on. This is why I am anti-theist. The ideas of theists can be quite dumb, but religion as a force which may be etched in our very biology is an idea to be considered with respect. Just because its wrong, which it is, does not make it an issue to be dismissed lightly, nor to be expected to vanish overnight - know your enemy, and be patient in dealing with it!