(February 4, 2016 at 7:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 9:54 am)Irrational Wrote: He also said being a Catholic is hard. Reread the first paragraph I quoted.

It's fine to look to the implication of what he's saying as well. You can't just focus on whether or not something is explicitly said.

The point was that it's hard but rewarding enough to him that it made him very happy. I'm pretty sure he's not wishing ill will upon anyone. At least that's not at all what he said.

He implied it. I think you're trying hard not to see that's basically what he's saying.

(February 4, 2016 at 3:43 pm)athrock Wrote: If you met me at a dinner party, you'd probably think I was a pretty nice person. You disagree with my views, but I haven't said anything particularly rude or out of line.

So says you, and you alone, Asshole! You sure aren't fooling anyone else with your insulting, condescending attitude!

Quote:I hope it will provide the starting point for some interesting discussion.

STOP flogging that insincere bullshit - that hasn't worked for you since the first time you tried to snow us with your sneaky, dishonest bullshit!

I do believe it's far past time the mods send you walking for being such a sociopathically dishonest troll cunt!

(February 4, 2016 at 8:36 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 7:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote: [hide]

All religions teach one doctrine:  Believe and obey without exception.  

Critical thinking and questions are to be avoided.  Do as you're told to do and how you're told to do it.  And if you do that you will go to heaven and not end up in hell (or the volcano).  

Ezekiel changed the rules to where every person is only responsible for his own sins.  Jesus reinforced that and Mohammed adopted that line of thinking.  So no one has to worry over what Adam & Eve did.  He only has to worry about what he does himself, under the revised rules.  Of course some governments continue to punish the sons for their fathers' crimes.  And in America we all like to blame the entire group for the crimes of the individual.

No, sorry, it is based on "sins of the father" otherwise there would be no need for the Adam and Eve story at all, there would be no "fall of man" which getting kicked out of the garden did for all future generations. If I am responsible for myself and they are not to blame, then every generation should be set in the garden not perpetuate the repetition of being put on a crappy planet with all sorts of imperfections like disease and natural disasters and crime and war. 

Not that I would want to be in that garden. I would simply be a dumb robot following commands without any say and also not knowing I was a pawn in a bet between God and Lucifer

"Revised the rules" wow, all powerful god "poofs" the universe and planet into existence but needs humans to right a book for him, takes over 1,000 years to complete and 40 authors with books left out and needs humans to vote on a final version, only for more humans later to write competing versions like NIV and book of Mormon.

(February 4, 2016 at 9:13 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 7:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The point was that it's hard but rewarding enough to him that it made him very happy. I'm pretty sure he's not wishing ill will upon anyone. At least that's not at all what he said.

He implied it. I think you're trying hard not to see that's basically what he's saying.

No, I think you're reaching for something that isn't there.

(February 4, 2016 at 10:39 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 9:13 pm)Irrational Wrote: He implied it. I think you're trying hard not to see that's basically what he's saying.

No, I think you're reaching for something that isn't there.

What do you think he means by "hard"? Something that doesn't involve suffering?

The context suggests that he wishes people were celibate like him. He also acknowledge this is a hard kind of life to live. So what is it that I'm reaching for that isn't there?

(February 4, 2016 at 10:32 am)athrock Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 9:38 am)Cato Wrote: Ah yes, ye olde hate the sin not the sinner routine. It's hard to take seriously someone who simultaneously refers to John Lennon as a kind of idiot, yet wants us to accept his assertion that homosexuality is somehow as harmful as eating sand.

What about Prever's idea that it is possible to be joyfully homosexual, celibate and Catholic?

I don't think it's possible to be joyful and celibate regardless of sexual orientation or religious indoctrination.

If I'm going to deny myself something that is essential to my being and that has the promise of increasing my well-being on this planet, I sure as hell would hope for a better answer than, "God, like your friendly neighborhood bigot, just doesn't like the idea of two men kissing on the lips, or holding each other's hands as they cuddle on the couch, and therefore insists that something is wrong with YOU if you not only can tolerate those things but - *gasp* - ENJOY THEM." I mean, c'mon, that shit is weak

(February 4, 2016 at 9:04 am)athrock Wrote: When I go to Confession, I sometimes mention the fact that I'm gay, to give the priest some context. (And to spare him some confusion: Did you say 'locker room'? What were you doing in the women's...oh.) I've always gotten one of two responses: either compassion, encouragement, and admiration, because the celibate life is difficult and profoundly counter-cultural; or nothing at all, not even a ripple, as if I had confessed eating too much on Thanksgiving
....
So the Church doesn't oppose gay marriage because it's wrong; she opposes it because it's impossible, just as impossible as living on sand.

Okay that's nice, but just because the RCC has mellowed their tone somewhat doesn't mean the Bible itself has:

• Leviticus 18:22: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
  
• Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
  
• 1 Kings 14:24: and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.
  
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
  
• Romans 1:18-27: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
  
  Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
  
  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
  
• 1 Timothy 1:8-11: Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
  

And let's not even get into the excommunication commandments, the explicit instruction not to associate with people of this nature (see Eph. 5:7) or this:

Eph. 5:1-13: Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

So to summarise, this is what the Bible says about homosexuals:

• They are an abomination (this is repeated several times),
  
• They should be executed,
  
• They are sexual perverts,
  
• They are equated with rapists (Sodomites),
  
• Their desires are unnatural and shameful,
  
• Homosexuality is caused by disobedience to God,
  
• They are sexual perverts,
  
• Do not associate with them,
  
• And expose them.
  

Now can you see the problem?

(February 4, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 8:36 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: All religions teach one doctrine:  Believe and obey without exception.  

Critical thinking and questions are to be avoided.  Do as you're told to do and how you're told to do it.  And if you do that you will go to heaven and not end up in hell (or the volcano).  

Ezekiel changed the rules to where every person is only responsible for his own sins.  Jesus reinforced that and Mohammed adopted that line of thinking.  So no one has to worry over what Adam & Eve did.  He only has to worry about what he does himself, under the revised rules.  Of course some governments continue to punish the sons for their fathers' crimes.  And in America we all like to blame the entire group for the crimes of the individual.

No, sorry, it is based on "sins of the father" otherwise there would be no need for the Adam and Eve story at all, there would be no "fall of man" which getting kicked out of the garden did for all future generations. If I am responsible for myself and they are not to blame, then every generation should be set in the garden not perpetuate the repetition of being put on a crappy planet with all sorts of imperfections like disease and natural disasters and crime and war. 

Not that I would want to be in that garden. I would simply be a dumb robot following commands without any say and also not knowing I was a pawn in a bet between God and Lucifer

"Revised the rules" wow, all powerful god "poofs" the universe and planet into existence but needs humans to right a book for him, takes over 1,000 years to complete and 40 authors with books left out and needs humans to vote on a final version, only for more humans later to write competing versions like NIV and book of Mormon.

According to the fairy tale Ezekiel changed the rules and everyone else, including Jesus and Mohammed, obeyed.  

As it says in Ezekiel chapter 18 you only have to worry about your own butt.  What the other guy did doesn't affect you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...EV;NIV;NLV

Of course if a man has sex with a woman who is on her period he shall die.  God doesn't like that!  It's off to the lake of fire.
Ezekiel 18:14-20 (CEV) = "14 But suppose this evil man has a son who sees his father do these things and refuses to act like him. 15 He doesn’t eat meat at local shrines or worship Israel’s idols, and he doesn’t have sex with someone else’s wife. 16 He never cheats or robs anyone and doesn’t even demand security for a loan. He gives food and clothes to the poor 17 and refuses to do anything evil[a] or to charge interest. And he obeys all my laws and teachings. Such a man will live. His own father sinned, but this good man will not be put to death for the sins of his father. 18 It is his father who will die for cheating and robbing and doing evil.

19 You may wonder why a son isn’t punished for the sins of his father. It is because the son does what is right and obeys my laws. 20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won’t suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won’t suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do."

(February 5, 2016 at 3:32 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(February 4, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No, sorry, it is based on "sins of the father" otherwise there would be no need for the Adam and Eve story at all, there would be no "fall of man" which getting kicked out of the garden did for all future generations. If I am responsible for myself and they are not to blame, then every generation should be set in the garden not perpetuate the repetition of being put on a crappy planet with all sorts of imperfections like disease and natural disasters and crime and war. 

Not that I would want to be in that garden. I would simply be a dumb robot following commands without any say and also not knowing I was a pawn in a bet between God and Lucifer

"Revised the rules" wow, all powerful god "poofs" the universe and planet into existence but needs humans to right a book for him, takes over 1,000 years to complete and 40 authors with books left out and needs humans to vote on a final version, only for more humans later to write competing versions like NIV and book of Mormon.

According to the fairy tale Ezekiel changed the rules and everyone else, including Jesus and Mohammed, obeyed.  

As it says in Ezekiel chapter 18 you only have to worry about your own butt.  What the other guy did doesn't affect you.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...EV;NIV;NLV

Of course if a man has sex with a woman who is on her period he shall die.  God doesn't like that!  It's off to the lake of fire.
Ezekiel 18:14-20 (CEV) = "14 But suppose this evil man has a son who sees his father do these things and refuses to act like him. 15 He doesn’t eat meat at local shrines or worship Israel’s idols, and he doesn’t have sex with someone else’s wife. 16 He never cheats or robs anyone and doesn’t even demand security for a loan. He gives food and clothes to the poor 17 and refuses to do anything evil[a] or to charge interest. And he obeys all my laws and teachings. Such a man will live. His own father sinned, but this good man will not be put to death for the sins of his father. 18 It is his father who will die for cheating and robbing and doing evil.

19 You may wonder why a son isn’t punished for the sins of his father. It is because the son does what is right and obeys my laws. 20 Only those who sin will be put to death. Children won’t suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won’t suffer for the sins of their children. Good people will be rewarded for what they do, and evil people will be punished for what they do."

Arggggggg,

I agree that the revisions exist, wasn't arguing they don't. I was arguing the garden was pointless as a story if one is going to say "sins of the father" no longer applies. Adam and Eve were the first domino and if they didn't eat the forbidden fruit we'd all be in that allegedly perfect garden. So there is no way to say it was not their fault. 

And again, not even the garden story is a really moral concept as a story. As I said, Adam and Eve were innocent pawns in a bet. They were ignorant and innocent, put there with no prior knowledge, no consent, no input, and just had arbitrary orders barked at them they got no explanation for. God is blaming them for something he did not have to set up, it is blaming the victim in a bet he set up. As for every generation afterwords in that book of myth, we are stuck with their punishment of not being in that allegedly perfect utopia.

But that brings me to a larger point I bring up about this God character.


Why all the do overs in the bible? Garden was supposed to be perfect. That didn't last. The flood was supposed to fix things, but that too didn't fix things. Then the fake suicide of God/himself/Jesus, was supposed to fix things, yet people still "sin", then at the end of the book God beats the shit out of everyone who didn't kiss his ass, throws most of humanity in the trash, and those who did kiss his ass simply spend an eternity doing the same.

It makes no logical sense to me, if one is going to claim a "perfect plan" to have all that needless  drama with all those conflicting stories and "revisions".

When someone reads the assembly manual for a bike, it is clear and to the point and can be followed by anyone without the different "interpretations" or "revisions".

If this is God's idea of efficiency or morality, I just don't see it.