Here's my opinion about this, and I'll be blunt.

CL has an avatar of a cute girl with big jugs, and speaks like Pollyanna. Several of the other posters in this thread have been especially kind to CL, and I think that it has a lot more to do with who they think she/he is than with the actual ideas. I guarantee if she had MY portrait as her Avatar, you all would have taken great relish in tearing her/him a new one. Shame on you guys for that.

Now, I have nothing against CL, and I'm happy to have religious people posting and making arguments. This helps me refine my position, and is of great value. However, this pick-and-choose relationship she has with her religion shows to me she's smart enough to realize that as a unified collection of philosophical ideas, it is completely incoherent. The next step for her, I would hope, is to ask whether ANYTHING, other than a general sense of goodwill toward humanity, is coherent about the Catholic institution.

And if there's nothing there but vague optimism and goodwill toward others, I'd ask her this-- why not shed the mythology and just keep the values, in their purest, most human form-- her own desire to be a good person?

(March 7, 2016 at 7:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You wouldn't last a second in my shoes. If you were in a theist forum and people were throwing straw at you, and treating you the same way you've been treating me, along with saying "fuck you" "you're a horrible person" and "go fuck yourself", I'd love to see how well you'd be able to keep your composure. ...Actually, I wouldn't love to see that. I've been in a theist forum before where atheists were getting a hard time (though nothing this vile), and I always felt sorry for them and stood up for them.

Several of us HAVE attempted to participate in religious forums, and the result is inevitable-- assorted X-tians throw out WLC arguments that they aren't smart enough to back up. Atheist, knowing the arguments well, instantly dismantles them. Theists start rambling about faith and feelings, and instantly ban theist.

CL, people can say whatever they want, and so can you. But the difference between AF and other forums is that you are allowed the courtesy of carrying on an extended conversation. Show me one religious site that will tolerate me for more than about a week, and I'll go register there right now. But you won't find one, and to me the reason is obvious-- nobody wants an elephant in a room where world views are made of eggshells.

(March 7, 2016 at 7:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:  [absolutely did not say God condones rape. Neither do I believe He does. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I believe He condemns rape and I believe He has ruled it as an objectively evil act. So yes, that is also a straw.

How do you know that God condemns rape? Since we have already established that the OT is a 'choose your own adventure' story I won't go into all that, but is there anything in the NT that explicitly prohibits rape? If there isn't, then how do you know God condemns it? If he does condemn it but watches it happen anyway, then he's no better than a sadistic voyeur.

I'm going to try and be careful not to put words in your mouth so bare with me, and I apologize in advance if I make a false assumption about your thoughts and feelings. I'm happy to be corrected if I get it wrong.

You say you don't know why God decided to let nature take its course and allow humans to commit such brutal acts upon each other, but that he must have his reasons because he's God.

I think that as a good person who understands how horrible rape is, you HAVE to tell yourself that God has some explanation unknowable to you, because you can't actually fathom any possible context or circumstance where God allowing these things to happen could be right.

And there is a damn good reason why you can't think of any. There is a reason you have to defer to mysterious explanations. Because no actual explanation makes any moral sense. Not to a compassionate and empathetic person like yourself. You can't think of any good reasons because there aren't any.

And eternal bliss doesn't square the debt in my opinion. Even if these young victims (the raped and murdered child for example) do enter into heaven, they were still robbed of their one and only life on earth. How is that fair?

(March 7, 2016 at 7:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I absolutely did not say God condones rape. Neither do I believe He does. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I believe He condemns rape and I believe He has ruled it as an objectively evil act. So yes, that is also a straw.

Show us just one example of your god actually condemning rape. Show us God,the Almighty Avenger descending from out of the sky to punish a rapist, instead of leave it up to the system which allows the overwhelming majority of rapists to get away with their crimes. For He is almighty, knows what will happen and what needs to be prevented before it happens, and capable of being anywhere and everywhere all at once - this is power that makes him responsible, and ultimately culpable for what happens when he allows it to happen, if he really exists and really is that mighty. Please. Stop. Avoiding. This. Truth!

(March 7, 2016 at 10:47 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(March 7, 2016 at 7:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I absolutely did not say God condones rape. Neither do I believe He does. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I believe He condemns rape and I believe He has ruled it as an objectively evil act. So yes, that is also a straw.

Show us just one example of your god actually condemning rape. Show us God,the Almighty Avenger descending from out of the sky to punish a rapist, instead of leave it up to the system which allows the overwhelming majority of rapists to get away with their crimes. For He is almighty, knows what will happen and what needs to be prevented before it happens, and capable of being anywhere and everywhere all at once - this is power that makes him responsible, and ultimately culpable for what happens when he allows it to happen, if he really exists and really is that mighty. Please. Stop. Avoiding. This. Truth!

I wish I could give this like, 12 kudos.

(March 7, 2016 at 9:36 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Here's my opinion about this, and I'll be blunt.

CL has an avatar of a cute girl with big jugs, and speaks like Pollyanna.  Several of the other posters in this thread have been especially kind to CL, and I think that it has a lot more to do with who they think she/he is than with the actual ideas.  I guarantee if she had MY portrait as her Avatar, you all would have taken great relish in tearing her/him a new one.  Shame on you guys for that.

Now, I have nothing against CL, and I'm happy to have religious people posting and making arguments.  This helps me refine my position, and is of great value.  However, this pick-and-choose relationship she has with her religion shows to me she's smart enough to realize that as a unified collection of philosophical ideas, it is completely incoherent.  The next step for her, I would hope, is to ask whether ANYTHING, other than a general sense of goodwill toward humanity, is coherent about the Catholic institution.

And if there's nothing there but vague optimism and goodwill toward others, I'd ask her this-- why not shed the mythology and just keep the values, in their purest, most human form-- her own desire to be a good person?

I have not picked and chosen any Catholic teachings. I accept and adhere to all of them. 

And as a woman, I find it pretty offensive that you're saying some people have been "niceish" to me only because of what I look like and the size of my chest, and not because of how I am as a person and how I have treated others here. (btw, I AM a she. You can ask that to one of the 10 forum members I have video skyped with, including KingPin, Tiberious, Whateverist, Losty, Poca, and others).  

To answer your question, I won't give up my beliefs because they are what I honestly believe to be the truth. And contrary to popular belief around here, they actually DO shape who I am and how I conduct myself. Not on the big things, like, obviously I would not be a serial killer if I didn't believe in God. But with the little things and just every day attitude, conduct, outlook on life and on other people, yes, I do try to follow the teachings and examples of Christ.

(March 7, 2016 at 9:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote: CL, people can say whatever they want, and so can you.  But the difference between AF and other forums is that you are allowed the courtesy of carrying on an extended conversation.  Show me one religious site that will tolerate me for more than about a week, and I'll go register there right now.  But you won't find one, and to me the reason is obvious-- nobody wants an elephant in a room where world views are made of eggshells.

Try Sensible Faith Forums. Whateverist is on there. Be respectful and genuine with your questions and I don't think you'll get banned.

(March 7, 2016 at 11:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 7, 2016 at 9:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote: CL, people can say whatever they want, and so can you.  But the difference between AF and other forums is that you are allowed the courtesy of carrying on an extended conversation.  Show me one religious site that will tolerate me for more than about a week, and I'll go register there right now.  But you won't find one, and to me the reason is obvious-- nobody wants an elephant in a room where world views are made of eggshells.

Try Sensible Faith Forums. Whateverist is on there. Be respectful and genuine with your questions and I don't think you'll get banned.

That means agree with what they say, because when you question the god of tribal ego, then it's an affront to the tribe.

(March 7, 2016 at 11:21 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(March 7, 2016 at 11:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Try Sensible Faith Forums. Whateverist is on there. Be respectful and genuine with your questions and I don't think you'll get banned.

That means agree with what they say, because when you question the god of tribal ego, then it's an affront to the tribe.

Not at all. You can disagree and still be respectful about it.

(March 7, 2016 at 11:23 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 7, 2016 at 11:21 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: That means agree with what they say, because when you question the god of tribal ego, then it's an affront to the tribe.

Not at all. You can disagree and still be respectful about it.

"They can have any color they want, as long as it's Black" - Henry Ford

The problem with disagreeing is that you cannot do this with most theists and not be accused of being disrespectful, because to question their god is in and of itself disrespectful to themselves. When they say that people create their gods in their own image, that's no bullshit. Having a god which walks beside you, knows your every thought before you even think them, the invisible friend and brother who saves you from sin and all - this is the textbook description of the human ego. If I challenge your god's existence, then I challenge your existence. If I say your god is wrong, then I would really be calling you out. Most believers take offense to this, and are likely to put up a violent defense against such "attacks". It's either that, or just ignore the inconvenient questions, not addressing them at all.