(March 11, 2016 at 6:14 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know about Christian doctrine nor can I speak for Islam as an official doctrine or represent it...but I believe there is not a thing that can be created from nothing.  It's impossible. God creates but creation existence is linked to God's existence, I would give the analogy of ray to the sun, but the ray become separate from the sun, while creation never loses it's link to God and is passed away in the source.

(God) Is in everything, but without being merged into them.-Imam Ali.

Whatever existence is, it's full out existence. Everything else is more semi-existence and depends on the independent existence for life. Not only that, but they defining from, it's reality, it's identity, it's creation is given from God and guided by him, and I don't simply mean created from nothing but actually given from God. As in these two statements are from the angle that they contradict each other.

Not only that, but we are so linked to the source that we see it from a distance, and the greatest signs of God as so passed away in the source, that they point to it.

Bollocks

(March 11, 2016 at 6:16 pm)Mancunian Wrote: Bollocks

God gave everything it's creation, such that, if there were gods with God, then the universe and all the things in it, would be in state of corruption.  We get our identity with respect to it's sight and vision of the creation with respect to himself.

(March 11, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Well my point was that without suffering, we have nothing to compare happiness with, so happiness would become a meaningless emotion.

I do not see that. One could be happy to hear the first words of their child or see the first steps.  I cannot fathom where the non-existence of rape, murder and pillaging would affect that happiness.

(March 11, 2016 at 6:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 6:16 pm)Mancunian Wrote: Bollocks

God gave everything it's creation, such that, if there were gods with God, then the universe and all the things in it, would be in state of corruption.  We get our identity with respect to it's sight and vision of the creation with respect to himself.

Prove all that. Please. Thank you. [emoji106]

(March 11, 2016 at 7:09 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 6:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: God gave everything it's creation, such that, if there were gods with God, then the universe and all the things in it, would be in state of corruption.  We get our identity with respect to it's sight and vision of the creation with respect to himself.

Prove all that.  Please.  Thank you.  [emoji106]

I believe I can, but this time, you got to promise to keep discussing and not getting others to debate for you. Let's take it slowly shall we?

(March 11, 2016 at 6:48 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Well my point was that without suffering, we have nothing to compare happiness with, so happiness would become a meaningless emotion.

I do not see that. One could be happy to hear the first words of their child or see the first steps.  I cannot fathom where the non-existence of rape, murder and pillaging would affect that happiness.

Would it be the same kind of happiness though? I'm not necessarily saying happiness wouldn't exist, but without the opposite emotion to compare it to, its scope is reduced.

This relates back to something I said earlier. If God did prevent rape from happening in some way, this conversation would be "why doesn't God prevent murder", and if he prevented murder, it would be "why doesn't God prevent X, Y, Z", and at some point you'll be asking "why doesn't God prevent me from stubbing my toe?".

The reason suffering happens is due to the fall of mankind. The reason God does not prevent suffering is because it gives us perspective on what we have lost, and what we could hope to achieve in the afterlife.

I wrote this before since we all went on the red herring of theodicy debate:

If we self-project our rights over one another to that of God, it seems we run into some problematic issues. God as the Creator can't even create death in the system, as that would be murder. If a innocent dies, then it would be murder on part of God.

I feel God as the source of all beings, has the right to plan a system in the universe for them. The only thing it must not be an unjust intention on part of the Creator.

Now the words God works in mysterious ways to be is a not a bad answer, it's just not very satisfying. It's obvious God works in ways beyond what we do were we in her place.

But that can be easily understood in that we are limited beings and we crave ease and happiness.

If my limited view of morality is taken as absolute and I apply it to a transcended Creator, is that too not perhaps a way to err?

Further more then that, if even let's say there are reasons in the design of the universe, if it explained to me, would go hand to hand with my level of understanding of morality, is it necessary that I reject the possibility of God because I don't understand those reasons as of yet?

One perspective is that there is divine sword of honor, that tested in a world were things are not so easy and smooth, develops a beauty in patience, a majesty in serene fortitude.

And for your Lord, be patient. (Quran)

Now obviously children don't get to experience the tests of life as grown ups, but while they lose an opportunity, they are also spared a chance of failure and becoming something which merits God's punishment.

So while over all it's a bad thing children die, there is a flip side to it, in that they are guaranteed paradise. They miss opportunity of character building.

That said, the system would be different in how it tests human if God interfered and made sure no children die.

Now a person can ask, do we have the right to that afflict suferring to bring the best out of people? The answer is no. This assumption makes the assumption our rights as citizens of the system, is the same, as the Creator and Designer of the system.

Obviously, our part is to be compassionate and merciful to each other. This extends to the issue we should look for cures, we should try to stop as much suffering as possible, because the opposite would be catastrophic to our system and to each other.

However whatever we face of trials, if it's from God, we feel we can be tested by him, and he has the right to test us. This is the essence of worship in my view, acknowledging God's right over you, being patient for her sake.

The test of such patience for the sake of God is something that can create a honorable love on part of God for her servant and a sense of honor on part of the patient in receiving such love and honor.

It's a closeness, a relationship.

Aside from that, is we are given something both in this world and the next, that is suppose to make suffering bearable and easily withstood, then this perspective changes.

And this is where I shift the issue of the spiritual guidance and the treasured blessings we receive through sticking to the Guides.

"God only desires to keep the uncleanness from you O people of the House and purify you a thorough purification"

If all blessings in all states in creation, in Angels, in Prophets who left this world, in every affair of peace, is encompassed in the family of Mohammad...for example, what affliction is there really in the suffering they endured?

Imam Hussain and his companions and sons were killed in Karbala, but what did he actually lose at the end?

What I'm trying to say by this, for those people who embrace God's favor and receive it, the world trials become a source of greater blessings both in this world and the next.

Of course aside from this, is the battle between good and evil. It seems if we go for quantity, then God didn't design the best system. Having us all born in paradise and end there seems better.

But if God cares to bring quality and is wiling to sacrifice quantity for that, then this makes sense.

However, part of the solution to this issue to me is perspective of the Mastery of his Chosen ones and the guidance role they play. The blessed states in the unseen, the glory and beauty, we have in serving the just cause of the chosen ones, the patience they show to imitate and fortitude they teach in the unseen, and courage of the willing to sacrifice ourselves for the greater good, this to me justifies the system as is.

Of course, if we don't care for quality of our souls, the system will seem unjust. If it's all about quantity over quality, the system will seem unjust.

But I see God trying to make gods and goddesses out of humans so to speak (of course, I don't believe there can be gods beside God, this is just poetic metaphor) and blow into them holy treasures through action in this world, patience, courage, and reflection.

This explanation perhaps doesn't satisfy some people, perhaps it doesn't even fully satisfy me, but it gives a scent enough of a will, that perhaps there is benevolent purpose to the chaotic world we are in.

(March 11, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 4:16 pm)robvalue Wrote: False analogy though, my parents are extremely limited in power.

The analogy had nothing to do with power, it's about letting a person suffer so they learn. There were times when your parents did this even when it was completely in their power to stop you from making a mistake. That doesn't make them "cunts", it makes them good parents.

Your parents are doing this because they ultimately see it as being in your best interest, and they, being your parents, have both the liberty and the duty to decide for you in those cases. Not so with God. I am not God's child and his interests are not my own.

(March 11, 2016 at 6:21 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 6:16 pm)Mancunian Wrote: Bollocks

God gave everything it's creation, such that, if there were gods with God, then the universe and all the things in it, would be in state of corruption.  We get our identity with respect to it's sight and vision of the creation with respect to himself.

That's an opinion, and strictly from the theistic point of view. But you said in your last post that there isn't anything which can be created out of nothing. Well, if your god can create something out of nothing, then it's no less probable that the same can evolve, over the course of almost 14 billion years, out of nothing through natural processes.

There may come a day, given enough time for humanity to explore its universe, that scientists will not only understand exactly how the universe came into existence - we may even have the power at our fingertips to tweak those processes, or even use our own to build new universes. If this happens, the how of it will be available for theists and atheists alike to review and verify. If you could be one of the theists during such a time, and you actually saw how they do it, then would you still be insisting that it all started with a supernatural origin which is beyond human understanding?

(March 11, 2016 at 5:19 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Way to cling to the very worst parts of fundamentalism.

Are there any good parts of fundamentalism?