(March 11, 2016 at 10:07 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 9:53 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Here's another analogy.  God has given a child a butterknife, pointed out an electrical socket, and said, "Don't put that knife in that hole."  But then, because he loves the child so much, he doesn't bother covering it or stopping the kid when he's about to put the knife in the socket, because-- you know-- the kid has to be free to act on his own.

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. God has given plenty of warnings and advice in the Bible to prevent people from doing immoral acts; that's the cover you speak of. Whether you listen to the warnings or not is up to you.

I would never think that way as a parent. If my son or daughter is in danger of getting fatally hurt, I would do whatever it took to save them, not punish them or let them be hurt.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: MK, do you guys believe in some form of Purgatory?

I'm not sure if it's equal to Christianity, but for some it will be a rewarding life in the start (the period in the barzakh before day of judgement), others it will be a severe test, which they must endure punishment but have some reward along with that, and others their dark deeds will overwhelm them and they will have a very narrow life before the day of judgement after they die.

On the day of judgement, intercession will be accepted for some and they will be saved while for others it will not avail them any intercession of any intercessor.

There is a verse that states that hell (which is after that) will remain except until God wishes otherwise, and heaven will remain until God wishes otherwise. It seems both hell and paradise are both stages. Paradise perhaps is not an end either. We being created for worship of God might transcend all it's pleasure one day perhaps (I believe this). Heaven is a reward to make us something greater and is a means I believe.

Hell is also a way to purify souls. It's the last resort. 

Everything is created for his mercy at the end of it all. 

Anyways I don't know majority or official view of Islam nor represent the Quran or Islam.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You are not wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

What we believe is that, since God is goodness and love, we truly reject Him by rejecting those things. So separation from God in the afterlife means you have chosen to turn away from goodness and love. You have completely hardened your heart. You have nothing but hate and contempt. That's miserable for a human because we were made for love, and we need it to be happy. That's what the majority of us consider "Hell" now a days.

Okay, let's say an Italian mobster kills dozens of people. They do not have the chance to confess-- and if they were hard of heart at the time of their deaths, they will be separated from goodness and love, and will be in Hell, whether that's a place or a spiritual state or whatever. Then the mobster, after sending dozens to hell, confesses on death's bed, with his heart full of goodness and love. He's going to Heaven, right?

See, this is the thing-- Christians keep talking about free will, but not about victims whose free will is superceded by that of their attackers. They lose their chance for salvation, and this in itself should be enough to condemn their attackers-- no matter how many indulgences they can afford to pay for, or how sincerely they beg for forgiveness at their lives' end.

One more thing-- WHY can't you see that the constantly evolving positions of the Catholic church demonstrate that the institution is based on made-up fairy tales?

(March 11, 2016 at 10:55 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 9:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote: According to Christian doctrine, you are God's child and he is very much concerned about your interests. That's why the analogy works.

No, not necessarily. We're either children of God or children of the devil. Depends on Christian interpretations and what passages matter more to the Christian.

I personally have never even heard of this before. This is the first time I'm seeing it. Not saying there aren't Christians out there who believe some humans are children of the Devil, but this is definitely not mainstream Christianity.

Yep, I was always taught that every person is a child of God.

(March 11, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 3:09 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't follow Tibs. You seem to be placing restrictions on God again.

I'm not placing restrictions on God; I'm saying God places them on himself. The Christian God values free will of humanity over trying to protect them from all forms of evil.

You've yet to explain the contradiction between the alleged omnipotence of this god and the alleged free will he has bequeathed us.

How is free will even possible under the eye of an omnipotent being? Can I decide to behave in a manner that violates his prescient knowledge? How can I surprise this god? If this god knows everything, he knows my every choice well before I am born. How can I choose to behave in a way he doesn't know beforehand without violating his attribute of omniscience?

... and the corollary to that is that if it doesn't surprise him, and if he doesn't take action to modify the results, how, exactly, is he not responsible?

Sorry, but this "free will" argument is, in the context of the claims made about the Judeo-Christian god, horseshit.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:25 pm)Losty Wrote: Yep, I was always taught that every person is a child of God.

In Shia ahadith, there is a concept of being spiritually born and related to the clay or light of the Prophet and his successors (all followers are considered this) or if one hates them then they are of of illegitimate birth (ie. his spirit and identity has take form and shape from Satan and the unclean unjust leaders of the world).

However it's not an either or thing. You can be neither. You can be neither born from the Guide and leader of time spiritually nor from Satan (illegitimate spiritual birth). 

There is people who mixed good and evil. They maybe forgiven or punished.

Shades of grey type of thing.

(March 11, 2016 at 10:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 9:58 pm)bennyboy Wrote: . . . and will burn us in fire for all eternity if we do anything He doesn't like.  You keep forgetting to include that part.

"Anything He doesn't like" means anything evil, though. And it also means doing it purposely with full knowledge and consent of the will, and with no remorse. That's the Catholic position anyway, not necessarily the position of every Christian denomination.

But it doesn't acknowledge how a person arrives at that state.  We know now how people end up that way-- abuse as children, neglect of parents, poverty, brain developmental issues, etc.  I could go to places in American ghettoes and say that just by being born into that environment, a person has a huge chance of going to hell, because he will HAVE to harden his heart to much evil in the world just to be tough enough to survive in that environment.

How many catholic priests have put young people into a life-long full-tilt, then felt bad about it later in life, begged forgiveness, and gone on to Heaven? How many kids have had not only their bodies but their sense of self-determination (aka free will) robbed, and hardened their hearts because it's the only way they can get out of bed without having a nervous fucking breakdown? If I had been raped as a child, I wouldn't be looking to open my heart to God's grace. I'd be developing telephoto pictures in a darkroom in my basement, and stockpiling a collection of machine guns. AND IT WOULDN'T BE MY FAULT.

This is my view of Catholicism. It amounts to institutionalized victim-blaming. Over and over and over, poor and underprivileged people die on the street in a state of stress and ongoing terror that you call hardness of heart. And the rich, white people of privilege get to lie in death's bed, ponder their lives, and confess. The victims go to Hell, and their abusers go to Heaven. This is what the idea of the grace of God means to me.

Fuck that.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:20 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You are not wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/h...gewanted=1

What we believe is that, since God is goodness and love, we truly reject Him by rejecting those things. So separation from God in the afterlife means you have chosen to turn away from goodness and love. You have completely hardened your heart. You have nothing but hate and contempt. That's miserable for a human because we were made for love, and we need it to be happy. That's what the majority of us consider "Hell" now a days.

Okay, let's say an Italian mobster kills dozens of people.  They do not have the chance to confess-- and if they were hard of heart at the time of their deaths, they will be separated from goodness and love, and will be in Hell, whether that's a place or a spiritual state or whatever.  Then the mobster, after sending dozens to hell, confesses on death's bed, with his heart full of goodness and love.  He's going to Heaven, right?

See, this is the thing-- Christians keep talking about free will, but not about victims whose free will is superceded by that of their attackers.  They lose their chance for salvation, and this in itself should be enough to condemn their attackers-- no matter how many indulgences they can afford to pay for, or how sincerely they beg for forgiveness at their lives' end.

One more thing-- WHY can't you see that the constantly evolving positions of the Catholic church demonstrate that the institution is based on made-up fairy tales?

You can feel remorse without getting the chance to go to confession. And you can go to confession without actually feeling remorse. It's what's in the person's heart that matters.  

As for your last question, that actually doesn't bother me. Over time, we come to learn more and understand more, through what we believe to be the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 11:25 pm)Losty Wrote: Yep, I was always taught that every person is a child of God.

In Shia ahadith, there is a concept of being spiritually born and related to the clay or light of the Prophet and his successors (all followers are considered this) or if one hates them then they are of of illegitimate birth (ie. his spirit and identity has take form and shape from Satan and the unclean unjust leaders of the world).

However it's not an either or thing. You can be neither. You can be neither born from the Guide and leader of time spiritually nor from Satan (illegitimate spiritual birth). 

There is people who mixed good and evil. They maybe forgiven or punished.

Shades of grey type of thing.

It's an ok story but I still prefer Harry Potter