The posts in this thread are too hilarious, I fukin love it 

(March 16, 2016 at 1:23 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil

They were then punished for committing evil

Biblical support please? They knew they had a responsibility to obey God, God told Adam, Adam told Eve, and Eve told the serpent.

GC

(March 16, 2016 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(March 16, 2016 at 1:23 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil

They were then punished for committing evil

Biblical support please? They knew they had a responsibility to obey God, God told Adam, Adam told Eve, and Eve told the serpent.

GC

Are you saying that they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

The king of Tyre lived in the Garden of Eden until he pissed off the Emperor for collaboraing with the Egyptians and got kicked out. That story doesn't mention the king's wife's name. By that time it was a man's world.

God: sucks at child-proofing.

Drich/CG:

Nihilist is pointing out what has long been my whole objection to the Eden fable, and I'd like to expand on it.

The fruit of the tree in question imparts knowledge or good and evil. Prior to eating the fruit, Adam and Eve could not possibly have known that disobedience to God was evil. In fact, they couldn't not have known what they were doing was 'wrong' until after committing the act for which they were punished. It isn't as if they were simply ignorant of the rules, they didn't have the requisite knowledge to know right from wrong. In fact, the concepts of right and wrong would have been completely alien to them. This is roughly like demanding that an infant solve the Three Body Problem and then punishing them for getting it wrong.

It gets even worse. God tells Adam that if he eats from the Tree, he is 'doomed to die'. But we are also told that death and decay came into the world because of Adam's sin, so Adam couldn't possibly have known what the phrase 'doomed to die' meant.

So, not only has God placed temptation in front of two people who were (essentially) ignorant children, but he tells them that if they yield to this temptation, they will be given a punishment they can't possibly comprehend.

To paraphrase the late, lamented Terry Pratchett, God isn't so much a moral lawgiver as a card cheat who won't tell you the rules.

Boru

(March 17, 2016 at 4:16 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Drich/CG:

Nihilist is pointing out what has long been my whole objection to the Eden fable, and I'd like to expand on it.

The fruit of the tree in question imparts knowledge or good and evil.  Prior to eating the fruit, Adam and Eve could not possibly have known that disobedience to God was evil.  In fact, they couldn't not have known what they were doing was 'wrong' until after committing the act for which they were punished.  It isn't as if they were simply ignorant of the rules, they didn't have the requisite knowledge to know right from wrong.  In fact, the concepts of right and wrong would have been completely alien to them.  This is roughly like demanding that an infant solve the Three Body Problem and then punishing them for getting it wrong.

It gets even worse.  God tells Adam that if he eats from the Tree, he is 'doomed to die'.  But we are also told that death and decay came into the world because of Adam's sin, so Adam couldn't possibly have known what the phrase 'doomed to die' meant.

So, not only has God placed temptation in front of two people who were (essentially) ignorant children, but he tells them that if they yield to this temptation, they will be given a punishment they can't possibly comprehend.

To paraphrase the late, lamented Terry Pratchett, God isn't so much a moral lawgiver as a card cheat who won't tell you the rules.

Boru

Can you accept that it is possible to know right from wrong, without understanding the concept of Good and evil?

Do you have children? have you spent any time with any toddlers? It goes without saying that a toddler does not understand the concept of sin, evil. As sin and evil are based on God's laws and where one's heart is in relation to a given sin.

Yet they still understand good bad/things they know is ok to do and things they know it is not ok for them to do.

My sister has a little girl will be 3 this April, and for example she knows she is not supposed to touch the TV especially with sticky hands. I watched her this weekend and we had Dora on and she likes to try and touch Dora.. While making a complete mess of a Pb&J I went to get her a drink, and when she thought I left and could not see her she stood up looked around and with sticky fingers outstretched she bolted to the TV..

Now with no knowledge of Sin, She knew she was not supposed to touch the TV. Otherwise why wait till the authority figure had left (like Eve) looked around to see if anyone was going to hold her accountable to her actions, then move to do something she knew she was not supposed to do?

If she was completely unaware of right and wrong then why wait till I was gone?

The same situation senerio plays out the same way with Eve. She waited till even Adam was not around to fall for her temptation.

She knew it was wrong by the very fact that she waited till she was alone. Ate the forbidden fruit and when what she expected did not happen, she passed it on to Adam.

So again why did God put the tree in the garden? Because again the tree and it's fruit represented choice. God wanted us to chose to either stay or leave. we chose to leave. Now the choice gets extended out via Christ, stay gone or come back.

And I would indeed argue Adam and Eve did die that very day as God promised. You assume that our current fallen form was what God created in the garden. I believe we are a hybrid of what God created in the garden and 'monkey man' who lived outside of it. Eitherway it's Obvious 'we' are not what God created as we can no longer be in the presence of God without being 'blinded, burned, consumed' by his Holy presence, and yet in the garden Adam walked with God daily. What God created Died that very day, we are what is left.

(March 17, 2016 at 9:37 am)Drich Wrote:

(March 17, 2016 at 4:16 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Drich/CG:

Nihilist is pointing out what has long been my whole objection to the Eden fable, and I'd like to expand on it.

The fruit of the tree in question imparts knowledge or good and evil.  Prior to eating the fruit, Adam and Eve could not possibly have known that disobedience to God was evil.  In fact, they couldn't not have known what they were doing was 'wrong' until after committing the act for which they were punished.  It isn't as if they were simply ignorant of the rules, they didn't have the requisite knowledge to know right from wrong.  In fact, the concepts of right and wrong would have been completely alien to them.  This is roughly like demanding that an infant solve the Three Body Problem and then punishing them for getting it wrong.

It gets even worse.  God tells Adam that if he eats from the Tree, he is 'doomed to die'.  But we are also told that death and decay came into the world because of Adam's sin, so Adam couldn't possibly have known what the phrase 'doomed to die' meant.

So, not only has God placed temptation in front of two people who were (essentially) ignorant children, but he tells them that if they yield to this temptation, they will be given a punishment they can't possibly comprehend.

To paraphrase the late, lamented Terry Pratchett, God isn't so much a moral lawgiver as a card cheat who won't tell you the rules.

Boru

---

Can you accept that it is possible to know right from wrong, without understanding the concept of Good and evil?

Do you have children? have you spent any time with any toddlers? It goes without saying that a toddler does not understand the concept of sin, evil. As sin and evil are based on God's laws and where one's heart is in relation to a given sin.

Yet they still understand good bad/things they know is ok to do and things they know it is not ok for them to do.

My sister has a little girl will be 3 this April, and for example she knows she is not supposed to touch the TV especially with sticky hands. I watched her this weekend and we had Dora on and she likes to try and touch Dora.. While making a complete mess of a Pb&J I went to get her a drink, and when she thought I left and could not see her she stood up looked around and with sticky fingers outstretched she bolted to the TV..

Now with no knowledge of Sin, She knew she was not supposed to touch the TV. Otherwise why wait till the authority figure had left (like Eve) looked around to see if anyone was going to hold her accountable to her actions, then move to do something she knew she was not supposed to do?

If she was completely unaware of right and wrong then why wait till I was gone?

The same situation senerio plays out the same way with Eve. She waited till even Adam was not around to fall for her temptation.

She knew it was wrong by the very fact that she waited till she was alone. Ate the forbidden fruit and when what she expected did not happen, she passed it on to Adam.

So again why did God put the tree in the garden? Because again the tree and it's fruit represented choice. God wanted us to chose to either stay or leave. we chose to leave. Now the choice gets extended out via Christ, stay gone or come back.

---

And I would indeed argue Adam and Eve did die that very day as God promised. You assume that our current fallen form was what God created in the garden. I believe we are a hybrid of what God created in the garden and 'monkey man' who lived outside of it. Eitherway it's Obvious 'we' are not what God created as we can no longer be in the presence of God without being 'blinded, burned, consumed' by his Holy presence, and yet in the garden Adam walked with God daily. What God created Died that very day, we are what is left.

AND you just asserted that your god screwed up.  He's all-powerful and all-knowing, and his little experiment just failed for the first time.  He didn't create perfect creatures and he even failed to communicate with them effectively.

(March 17, 2016 at 2:25 am)KevinM1 Wrote: God: sucks at child-proofing.

God sucks at damned near everything.