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RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 2, 2011 at 3:35 am
Quote:I’m saying I’d like the porn industry to take some accountability for its affect on society and stop trying to cater to illegal demands blurring the lines of legality and encouraging/ promoting fantasies of rape, abuse and exploitation.
So some porn portrays illegal stuff, so what? What about movies, video games? You don't even have to be talking about modern movies, like casablanca for example; Rick shoots the german officer at the end. That's murder. So he was a nazi, does mean it's not murder? Of course not! But who cares? You think somebody watched casablanca and wanted to murder somebody afterward? Also, that's no spoiler; he was a nazi of course he was gonna die! I know some people like to blame movies and video games for violence the same way you seem to be suggesting porn encourages pedophilia, rape or disregard for women - as if there was no violence or rape in the world before the 1940s. I don't buy the argument that people do heinous shit because they saw it in a movie, video game or a porn. People have done heinous shit all throughout history and it seems we need little excuse or reason to do so. On a side note, it's funny nobody mentions literature on this topic. Again, you don't even have to look at modern literature, look at the Iliad, Beowulf, hell the OT is full of violence, genocide, rape, you name it. I suppose what I'm asking is, unless you want to sanitize all media, why single out porn?
Also as far as taking extra measures to prevent minors from accessing porn, why? 14 year olds (males anyway :p) are definitely interested in sex, and they will find a way to satiate this interest. Whether it's internet porn, magazine porn (that's right, I found my dads' porn stash when I was a kid. and....it....was....awesome!) or experimenting with somebody. I don't see what can be gained from trying to tell them that sexual desire is dirty and to be repressed, or can only be experienced after marriage. In my opinion that's far damaging than some porn with a 28 year old actress with pigtails pretending to be a babysitter.
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
--------------- NO MA'AM
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 2, 2011 at 10:06 am
(April 1, 2011 at 12:57 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:
Tack..one of the hardest things for me to learn...and to accept....after I left Christianity was that people are individuals who have different ideas about life than you do. Disagreeing with someones choices does not make that person evil, or immoral. I realized that being a Christian made me authoritative...I knew what was right for people to live their lives by and anyone who opposed it were immoral, stupid, wrong, etc...besides, I had god on my side. I "felt" Jesus in my heart. I now realize that was a bad moment in my life that I am glad is finally over. I still cringe looking back at those days and how I was deluding myself. I still cringe thinking of the stupid shit I said back then.
You can assume that it's my religious bias causing me to be authoritative, but honestly, I feel it's the fact I'm a father and I have seen first hand the long term damage this does to it's victims. I've also been a porn addict, I didn't quit because of my religion, but because of my family. My life is better now for leaving it behind. I don't have any issues with people watching porn if that floats their boat. I just personally can't support an industry that tries to bend the laws (well over the line, IMO) to make a buck at other's expense and contribute to fantasies of hurting others. I was asked why I was opposed to it and I answered. If porn wasn't promoting fake illegal crap, I would have voted in support of it, and just commented that my life is now better without it.
(April 1, 2011 at 1:06 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:
Tacky Wrote:4-Why stop minors from accessing porn? Because it's illegal. There is a legal age and classification of a minor for a reason. It variable based on localized societies, but at least it’s established. Once again I have little problem with the legal porn industry. I think it’s doing itself, and society, a disservice by catering to illegal desires and urges.
I would suggest you not presume law to be either correct, rational, or effective. The 'reason' there is a legal age and classification of 'minor' is to serve an already existing system. Change the system and there no longer is use in the same capacity (ie: class of 2010 nonsense).
Established is also nonsynonomous with correct, intelligent, rational, anything really beyond that it goes as generally accepted. It was once established that taking a bath reduced your chances of survival.
If it *is* catering to illegal things (ie: child porn???), then there is either a problem with those that are breaking the laws or those who are making them... possibly both.
Quote:5-Put simply I feel fantasizing about illegal activities increases the compulsion to take illegal actions. Not to say that some people can’t enjoy rape/abuse/snuff/child porn (fake or otherwise) and not act on those urges, but some do. That to me is abhorrent enough to do away with it entirely. It is illegal for those types of porn, but the legal enterprise , IMO is trying to end run around the legality for greed alone. I don’t support an industry that chases greed and encourages illegal activity by promotion without care for societal ramifications.
I don't disagree. Why does nobody rebel in Russia? It's because nobody thinks a rebellion could succeed. Holding a fantasy of doing so is scarcely likely to morph into a reality of you trying to do so (indeed, tis only a coincidence that a rebellion also occurred).
Because some people do bad things with their guns, you would deny me mine?
Having a gun is not abhorrent, though I am more of a knife girl myself. Less chance of me failing to use it properly.
Please stop describing the evils of capitalism as reason to delegalize something. I agree that capitalism is evil. I don't agree that things should be banned because people take advantage of them. Ban what is broken: porn is not broken.
If you do not support an industry that "chases greed and encourages illegal activity by promotion without care for societal ramifications." then you are denying every industry. The 'bottom line' is all that those running these industries are worried about, and people partake in them because of the same bottom line. Does this honestly surprise you?
Tacky Wrote:6-Honestly Sae there’s little difference between the form of a 17-18. Age of consent isn’t even established in all communities. Some are at the onset of having your period, some are 14-15. There are Romeo and Juliet laws for 2 consenting minor to have sex. I have no problems with a 13 and 15year old couple having sex (in a social sense, I do personally with my own son and daughter) … what I have a problem with is an adult watching it/filming it/selling it/forcing it/exploiting it.
Exploitation has such a negative connotation. I don't think it so negative to 'exploit' what you can. I think many who complain of it are QQers that blow things out of proportion. /enddigress
I'm glad you don't think the problem is where minor's and sec are concerned. I don't mind if people I invite to watch me have sex/video it/ sell it. I do mind those who force it, but that goes without saying i should think. Depends on how you mean 'exploiting'... if it's selling it in more places than I originally thought they would: whatever, good for them, enjoy. If it is bug my room so they can have additional things which i did not agree to: I will kill them.
Quote:7-Is the problem with the visual aesthetic of the form or something else? Could your 13yr old friend be built like an 18 yr old? Yes. I have a god-sister that looked 18 when she was 14 (DD, curvy and even intellectually mature for her age). But despite her intellect and rational ability to understand sex and its ramifications, the thought of someone taking advantage of her innocence (lack of experience and emotional vulnerability) sends me into a rage. Did I find her attractive... looking back I found her physically attractive like you would your sister, but not sexually attractive, even though the standards are practically the same. I’m not exactly sure the difference exactly, which is why I’m probably having such a time conveying my point.
Yes... i'm lost 0.o I hate innocence in sex/relationships. I was never terribly innocent... personalities before this one were all much more innocent than this. And I become less innocent as things continue to occur. I imagine I'll be a bitter old woman one day. Hope I'm dead by then
I do not understand the 'like you would your sister' followed by 'not sexually attractive' suggestion :S I have two sisters... one who is probably 15-16 years my senior, and the other who is 1.5 years my junior. The elder sister is moderately sexually attractive, the former is not remotely sexually attractive. I don't understand your point on the grounds that one of my sisters is sexually attractive and one of my nieces the same. I am also attracted to all of my elder brothers to an extent. However, I would never have sex with any of these people... as they would not want it from me and it would unnecessarily complicate our relationships on their end, a thing which I try to avoid when possible.
Quote:8-I have no problem with sex education in schools and home, but I don’t think porn is a good teacher. It objectifies and depersonalizes healthy relationships (instead of monogamy). Noting a thing for what it is, is fine. Devaluing relationships because you see your partner as nothing but a way to get off isn’t.
Porn is a better teacher than the sex education I was given throughout school, which was about like 1 day of it every 2 years or so. If it taught reasonable ways in which to have sex, I would agree with its institution... but I learned nothing from the 'eduction' of it in school. I had the internet, I learned these things already. I recall asking my mother if I could skip the day the first time, not sure why. I heaped it with the rest of the useless work by the time middle school came about ^_^ I learned sex through first porn and then trial and error with a boyfriend. So far I have had exactly zero complaints about how well I've done
Objectifying a thing is not unhealthy, and is infact necessary. The person is in that bag of flesh: know what the bag of flesh is. It devalues my relationships in no way at all for me to know that someone is in a human platform, and has pleasure centers here, there, and yonder which they appreciate being activated in our alone time together. I agree that if you see you're partner as nothing but a way to get off: there is something wrong... UNLESS you are paying for sex and they are not a partner past this agreement. Porn is not depersonalizing my relationships (healthy or unhealthy I'll never be sure), and is infact a good guide for what I would like to have done to me, and for what someone else might like being done to them.
Tacky Wrote:9-I’m not saying we should ban porn, even if that would work. Legal porn is fine; I like chocolate you don’t, to each their own. I’m saying I’d like the porn industry to take some accountability for its affect on society and stop trying to cater to illegal demands blurring the lines of legality and encouraging/ promoting fantasies of rape, abuse and exploitation.
It does not blur the lines of legality any more than a movie about a war does by depicting people being shot/butchered/blown up/whatever. I do not have difficulty distinguishing between a real war and an acted war (real war is much worse, look to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Fro...ld_War_II) for an actual war).
I will, however, grant you that I wouldn't mind a lot of things many consider to be taboo or disgusting, and that porn likely had a hand in expanding my tastes to an extent. Being transexual has a lot more to do with my ever-expanding options though
4-I only presume the law to be a standard, I don't care whether it's correct or not at this point. I'm sure a lot of people would love for the legal age of consent to drop considerably or be done away with. I established that it clearly is catering towards illegal activities. It by the very definition of the law isn’t breaking it, but by faking those activities, and making sure their actors/actresses have proof, they are breaking the intent and spirit of the law. Do you agree?
5-I’m not for banning you for having a gun because bad guys use guns to kill people. I’m not for banning legal porn for showing legal things. You have to have a license to own that gun though, it shows you’re competent to use minimalistically and there are no indications that you’ll misuse it. All I’m asking for is the same regulation of the porn industry. Can gun companies make rocket launchers and guns that can pass metal detectors and guns like the striker 12, but you can’t legally buy/own them here. Here people who choose to have fully automatic weapons have to give up their rights for privacy because the federal authorities can then search your property at any time for no reason. To relate back to topic, if you don’t see a problem with porn, then why should you care if the porn companies monitor your viewing trends to see what you like to focus advertisements and spam to you? If you want to watch porn that fakes illegal activities, fine but I’d suggest monitoring those people so that they don’t cross that line. If you just want the real illegal stuff you’ll have to go to the black market for that, which if porn were sanctioned and regulated would be easier to prosecute.
6- It’s not negative to exploit what you can? I guess that depends on the object of exploitation and whether you feel you’re entitled to exploit it. Would you exploit a record company? A stranger? A friend? An animal? A child?
I personally don’t feel it’s ever justified to exploit something weaker, more fragile or more naive than you are, at the very least.
7-What I mean is I have a distinction between physical attraction and sexual attraction. Perhaps it’s because I don’t see people as sacks of meat first then people after, I give them all inherent personal qualities first. Colloquially, I see a different between “something beautiful” and something “I’d like to bang”. I can appreciate beauty without having to claim it in whatever form that takes. I don’t want to damage our friendship here sae, but I think our baselines for comparison are far too different to meet on a middle ground here. I’m married in a heterosexual relationship, with kids and am far out of my spreading my seed phase. You’re coming from someplace completely different and that’s OK with me.
8- Porn teaches (in some cases, not all) unreasonable and illegal ways to have sex, and that’s my point. Why do you need to have a legal porn where the underage lookalike acts all innocent and gets taken advantage of or raped, but then seems to enjoy it after a while? I agree the current sex curriculum is defunct, but I also included home learning. I answer my kid’s questions about sexual topics and they’re only 5 and 8. I would not sit them down in front of porn and use that as a good role model for relationships. I don’t think that being raped, molested, beat or abused is a “good guide” for you want done to yourself or to do to someone else. I’m not talking about a monogamous relationship, or a bi/tri/trans/homo sexual relationship, and I’m not talking about the techniques or any BDSM play or fetishes. I’m talking about the legal porn that mimics illegal activities. That’s the only type of legal porn I have any issues at all with, and because they won’t get rid of it on their own, I suggested regulation, not prohibition of all porn.
9-You would have a problem distinguishing between a real war and a fake war if the fake war were intended to make people think it was a real war. I believe that was clearly the porn industries intent, and I’d just like them to be accountable for it. It’s probably never going to happen and I can live with that, but I feel it’s a shame that society would demand such things to satisfy their urges.
”cdog” Wrote:
So some porn portrays illegal stuff, so what? What about movies, video games? You don't even have to be talking about modern movies, like casablanca for example; Rick shoots the german officer at the end. That's murder. So he was a nazi, does mean it's not murder? Of course not! But who cares? You think somebody watched casablanca and wanted to murder somebody afterward? Also, that's no spoiler; he was a nazi of course he was gonna die! I know some people like to blame movies and video games for violence the same way you seem to be suggesting porn encourages pedophilia, rape or disregard for women - as if there was no violence or rape in the world before the 1940s. I don't buy the argument that people do heinous shit because they saw it in a movie, video game or a porn. People have done heinous shit all throughout history and it seems we need little excuse or reason to do so. On a side note, it's funny nobody mentions literature on this topic. Again, you don't even have to look at modern literature, look at the Iliad, Beowulf, hell the OT is full of violence, genocide, rape, you name it. I suppose what I'm asking is, unless you want to sanitize all media, why single out porn?
Also as far as taking extra measures to prevent minors from accessing porn, why? 14 year olds (males anyway ) are definitely interested in sex, and they will find a way to satiate this interest. Whether it's internet porn, magazine porn (that's right, I found my dads' porn stash when I was a kid. and....it....was....awesome!) or experimenting with somebody. I don't see what can be gained from trying to tell them that sexual desire is dirty and to be repressed, or can only be experienced after marriage. In my opinion that's far damaging than some porn with a 28 year old actress with pigtails pretending to be a babysitter.
10-I never stated these urges weren’t around before porn. I single out porn because it was the topic. The only difference I see between a porno clip and an erotic film, is the film has a story and usually doesn’t show illegal activities in a good light or at least not without some kind of consequence.
11-This is how I understand id, ego and superego. The id is the repository for a whole bunch of conflicting urges. The superego is the moral limiter giving a counterpoint to the id and the ego is the decider on whether to grant the urge or not. Maybe if I break this down mathematically it will be easier.
Let’s say you have some repressed urge that’s illegal (1u)i
Let’s say that you have a strong moral objection to the urge -(7u)se
Lets say that your ego is trying to decide on to allow the urge or not. “i” is offset by the “se” for a negative result which equals no assent to act.
Now lets factor in that constant visual stimuli to the Wernicke’s and factor in all that chemical and emotional gratification from pleasuring yourself into it. Now the urge is stronger (6u)i
There is still no action because your moralistic centers are still stronger but you definitely feel more urged to.
Now lets say your moral centers are compromised because of some abuse or outlook on lifestyle -(5u)se
Now that person susceptible to crossing the line feels the need to take action on those urges. The only thing that would stop him is additional counterpoints from the superego like the fear of getting caught.
I’m simply stating that one person being urged into action and abusing a child or raping someone isn’t worth every single one of those people satisfying their urges selfishly that don’t take action, IMO. Both due to the heinousness in my personal morality, my attitude as a father and the basic privileges to certain freedoms I feel everyone deserves. It’s happened before porn, and it’ll happen for many centuries to come. I just think hurrying it along is ludicrous.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 2, 2011 at 11:38 am
tack Wrote:You can assume that it's my religious bias causing me to be authoritative, but honestly, I feel it's the fact I'm a father and I have seen first hand the long term damage this does to it's victims.
"Victims"? The hell are you talking about? If it is legal stuff and the people KNEW they were getting into it, then how dare they come back later claiming they have been victimized. Im a father, still doesnt change my mind about the stuff. Trying to use children to guilt people out of things is another thing the religious types like to use; "we cant have this on TV, what about the children?" So they want to use children to scrub the net clean (and subsequently transform it into their version of christianity), scrub the TV clean (funny how tv preachers are immune to this scrubbing), and scrub society clean (except for their versions of christians). There are some DISGUSTING things in the bible...sex, murder, human sacrifice, killing of children, etc.. yet that is immune from being scrubbed as well?
tack Wrote:I've also been a porn addict, I didn't quit because of my religion, but because of my family. My life is better now for leaving it behind. I don't have any issues with people watching porn if that floats their boat. I just personally can't support an industry that tries to bend the laws (well over the line, IMO) to make a buck at other's expense and contribute to fantasies of hurting others. I was asked why I was opposed to it and I answered. If porn wasn't promoting fake illegal crap, I would have voted in support of it, and just commented that my life is now better without it.
Please define "my life is better now for leaving it" and "my life is now better without it.".
You do have issues with people watching porn. I will quote you:
Quote:I feel it's the fact I'm a father and I have seen first hand the long term damage this does to it's victims
VICTIMS is a VERY strong word. Sure sounds like you have lots of issues with porn, and people watching porn since it makes them "victims" that are subjecting themselves to the risk of "addiction". These arent words that you use when at the same time you claim you dont have issues with it.
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 2, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Tacky Wrote:4-I only presume the law to be a standard, I don't care whether it's correct or not at this point. I'm sure a lot of people would love for the legal age of consent to drop considerably or be done away with. I established that it clearly is catering towards illegal activities. It by the very definition of the law isn’t breaking it, but by faking those activities, and making sure their actors/actresses have proof, they are breaking the intent and spirit of the law. Do you agree?
I do not, infact agree. Murder is illegal not because blood and death are distasteful: but because a potentially valuable member of a community is being annihilated, and unfortunately this is usually because of someone else's petty anger. Similarly... thievery is not illegal because people pick things up and take them without other people's consent: it is illegal because it disrupts trade negatively on a mass scale if you do not make it illegal.
Rape wasn't illegal for any reasons not religious or associated with thievery of the wife until... after animal abuse laws set a precedent for human abuse laws But now that we have this understanding of abuse to be illegal, I would like to note that there is no perceptible difference to outside observers of faked rape and real rape, hence you could have some point in this small regard. However, they are not breaking the intent of the law (which is to prevent abuse, fake abuse is irrelevant as fake murder), and the spirit of a law is a thing I have never claimed to understand, and see as irrelevant in the purpose of the law.
Quote:5-I’m not for banning you for having a gun because bad guys use guns to kill people. I’m not for banning legal porn for showing legal things. You have to have a license to own that gun though, it shows you’re competent to use minimalistically and there are no indications that you’ll misuse it. All I’m asking for is the same regulation of the porn industry.
I would like to note that most of the porn sites I have ever been to provide free *samples* and then have a required payment to access the rest. Granted, there are free sites elsewhere... but one should surely beware accessing these if they have any knowledge of the internet at all. I question the 'misuseability' of porn.
Quote:Can gun companies make rocket launchers and guns that can pass metal detectors and guns like the striker 12, but you can’t legally buy/own them here. Here people who choose to have fully automatic weapons have to give up their rights for privacy because the federal authorities can then search your property at any time for no reason. To relate back to topic, if you don’t see a problem with porn, then why should you care if the porn companies monitor your viewing trends to see what you like to focus advertisements and spam to you? If you want to watch porn that fakes illegal activities, fine but I’d suggest monitoring those people so that they don’t cross that line. If you just want the real illegal stuff you’ll have to go to the black market for that, which if porn were sanctioned and regulated would be easier to prosecute.
I do not care if a porn company wishes to know my viewing trends. I do care if people go to the governing body about this data and care to legislate something based upon it.
I like to watch war movies, which include plenty of killing and whatnot. Do you suggest monitoring me and every other human that enjoys history, Stalin? ^_^ But I'm too young for Gulag!
Quote:6- It’s not negative to exploit what you can? I guess that depends on the object of exploitation and whether you feel you’re entitled to exploit it. Would you exploit a record company? A stranger? A friend? An animal? A child?
I personally don’t feel it’s ever justified to exploit something weaker, more fragile or more naive than you are, at the very least.
Not at all. I would exploit a record company. I exploit strangers all the time. I often exploit friends. I don't exploit non-human animals quite to such an extent (although I am a fisherwoman, heh). Children are very easy to exploit and I do to an extent, though they aren't very useful very often.
And what else were you going to exploit? It is justified by the simple selfish principle: it gets me ahead. Granted, I share a portion of my wealth with other people... but never to the extent that it affects my end goals. And I despise naivety in a relationship, so one hardly has to worry about me exploiting anyone on the level of rape
Quote:7-What I mean is I have a distinction between physical attraction and sexual attraction. Perhaps it’s because I don’t see people as sacks of meat first then people after, I give them all inherent personal qualities first. Colloquially, I see a different between “something beautiful” and something “I’d like to bang”. I can appreciate beauty without having to claim it in whatever form that takes. I don’t want to damage our friendship here sae, but I think our baselines for comparison are far too different to meet on a middle ground here. I’m married in a heterosexual relationship, with kids and am far out of my spreading my seed phase. You’re coming from someplace completely different and that’s OK with me.
I don't see people as their form first, but I do see a form first and then possibly declare personhood afterwards. Not all humans are infact people, you know... plenty of them just lack personality.
I give them the quality of 'that is solid and moving and doesn't like me to look at it' to humans I pass along a street or hallway. I then add value to the human according to what I observe of it, and admittedly some of these values are negative additions (ie: that human contains a jerkish personality).
Your sister is beautiful like a sunset is beautiful, then? Which is to say that her beauty arouses an entirely different thing than a sexual desire. I can understand that, I hadn't thought of the expansive word that beauty is at the time i wrote it (I was on one hour of sleep!!!! ^_^)
I'm coming from the position that I do not want any children, yet hardly wish to be tied down to a single partner. I hardly dislike the stability you have in your life, but I could never live with such stability myself I too am far out of a 'spreading my seed phase' (kinda-sorta a woman...)... however: I remain sofar unmoved from the horribly irrational phase of feeling maternal every few days I don't have time for that, see, and I understand rationally that it is in my worst interest to do so, and also that I even can't bear it myself... and some portion of my brain still doesn't get it
I'm willing to drop the issue though, I'm not in here specifically to argue, rather: to learn and have fun while I do so and sometimes help others learn ^_^
Quote:8- Porn teaches (in some cases, not all) unreasonable and illegal ways to have sex, and that’s my point. Why do you need to have a legal porn where the underage lookalike acts all innocent and gets taken advantage of or raped, but then seems to enjoy it after a while?
Because if she didn't seem to enjoy it after a while, it would be too sickening for me to achieve pleasure (which I do largely off of faces). While I can appreciate an "underage lookalike", i can't appreciate innocence or rape. Pain and bondage? Sure. Rape? Nope. Double standard? Possibly. I wouldn't enjoy being fucked without my consent... I would enjoy bondage (probably not pain to such extent though).
Quote:I agree the current sex curriculum is defunct, but I also included home learning. I answer my kid’s questions about sexual topics and they’re only 5 and 8. I would not sit them down in front of porn and use that as a good role model for relationships. I don’t think that being raped, molested, beat or abused is a “good guide” for you want done to yourself or to do to someone else. I’m not talking about a monogamous relationship, or a bi/tri/trans/homo sexual relationship, and I’m not talking about the techniques or any BDSM play or fetishes. I’m talking about the legal porn that mimics illegal activities. That’s the only type of legal porn I have any issues at all with, and because they won’t get rid of it on their own, I suggested regulation, not prohibition of all porn.
Glad that your actually a decent father in this regard ^_^ I like hearing about decent parenting, makes me all happy inside ^_^
My desire to keep porn unregulated and sometimes free is because I haven't passed the legal age of majority where I can just buy it I also think it very unhealthy to keep porn away from "minors". I wouldn't mind being denied the rape category though (considering how scarcely I watch it? hehe ^_^). What other categories were you thinking of regulating though? 0.o
Quote:9-You would have a problem distinguishing between a real war and a fake war if the fake war were intended to make people think it was a real war. I believe that was clearly the porn industries intent, and I’d just like them to be accountable for it. It’s probably never going to happen and I can live with that, but I feel it’s a shame that society would demand such things to satisfy their urges.
A real war is when my territory and their territory are fluctuating. Hard. A fake war is when someone declares war on you and does practically nothing. Real war is not remotely fast. If it were, it would be called 'steamrolling', or 'bulldozing', or 'decimating'... not war. War is not accomplished by one side, but by two or more sides pitted against each other.
Fake war in movies accomplishes some of what war is (battles, strategy, death, failure/success, etc)... but it leaves it in the television. It doesn't permeate my life the way a war does. It is impossible for a fake war to have such an effect on life as a war... war is more than people dying you know: it is people fighting to survive, to not fail, to expand for good. You cannot accomplish this in a movie. A game has some mild capacity to do so, as it is immersing you within the world (therefore if integrated well you can experience such effects as war).
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 3, 2011 at 8:04 am
(April 2, 2011 at 11:38 am)reverendjeremiah Wrote:
tack Wrote:You can assume that it's my religious bias causing me to be authoritative, but honestly, I feel it's the fact I'm a father and I have seen first hand the long term damage this does to it's victims.
"Victims"? The hell are you talking about? If it is legal stuff and the people KNEW they were getting into it, then how dare they come back later claiming they have been victimized. Im a father, still doesnt change my mind about the stuff. Trying to use children to guilt people out of things is another thing the religious types like to use; "we cant have this on TV, what about the children?" So they want to use children to scrub the net clean (and subsequently transform it into their version of christianity), scrub the TV clean (funny how tv preachers are immune to this scrubbing), and scrub society clean (except for their versions of christians). There are some DISGUSTING things in the bible...sex, murder, human sacrifice, killing of children, etc.. yet that is immune from being scrubbed as well?
tack Wrote:I've also been a porn addict, I didn't quit because of my religion, but because of my family. My life is better now for leaving it behind. I don't have any issues with people watching porn if that floats their boat. I just personally can't support an industry that tries to bend the laws (well over the line, IMO) to make a buck at other's expense and contribute to fantasies of hurting others. I was asked why I was opposed to it and I answered. If porn wasn't promoting fake illegal crap, I would have voted in support of it, and just commented that my life is now better without it.
Please define "my life is better now for leaving it" and "my life is now better without it.".
You do have issues with people watching porn. I will quote you:
Quote:I feel it's the fact I'm a father and I have seen first hand the long term damage this does to it's victims
VICTIMS is a VERY strong word. Sure sounds like you have lots of issues with porn, and people watching porn since it makes them "victims" that are subjecting themselves to the risk of "addiction". These arent words that you use when at the same time you claim you dont have issues with it.
Okay..if it is FAKE, then it isnt illegal.
“Victims” is a strong word, but you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not talking about the viewers of legal porn being victims. I’m talking about the abused women, men and children resulting from the urges that could or could not be attributed to the use of the legal porn industry fortifying, condoning and exploiting illegal fantasies
To better define my objection. Personally, I see less usefulness in fantasies than real relationships and that is what I mean by I am better without it. If other people feel usefulness in continuing to fantasize, I may consider it a sad state, but I grant them the privilege to do what they think makes them happy. I have no objections with people who choose to view legal porn (even the faked illegal acts). I have an issue with those who can’t control their urges and act on these fantasies damaging men, women and children, often irreparably. Those are the victims I’m talking about. I think fortifying and encouraging those illegal fantasies (which the legal porn industry does) risks more victims rather than saving them by allowing sycophants to act out these fantasies in their own minds over and over.
If you want to make this about things other than porn, other mediums, my religious beliefs, or think I’m using the victimization of real people to elicit an emotional response rather than just stating my beliefs then you’re entitled to, but it distracts the conversation and compounds already big walls of text and erodes to orderliness of discussion.
(April 2, 2011 at 2:40 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:
Tacky Wrote:4-I only presume the law to be a standard, I don't care whether it's correct or not at this point. I'm sure a lot of people would love for the legal age of consent to drop considerably or be done away with. I established that it clearly is catering towards illegal activities. It by the very definition of the law isn’t breaking it, but by faking those activities, and making sure their actors/actresses have proof, they are breaking the intent and spirit of the law. Do you agree?
I do not, infact agree. Murder is illegal not because blood and death are distasteful: but because a potentially valuable member of a community is being annihilated, and unfortunately this is usually because of someone else's petty anger. Similarly... thievery is not illegal because people pick things up and take them without other people's consent: it is illegal because it disrupts trade negatively on a mass scale if you do not make it illegal.
Rape wasn't illegal for any reasons not religious or associated with thievery of the wife until... after animal abuse laws set a precedent for human abuse laws But now that we have this understanding of abuse to be illegal, I would like to note that there is no perceptible difference to outside observers of faked rape and real rape, hence you could have some point in this small regard. However, they are not breaking the intent of the law (which is to prevent abuse, fake abuse is irrelevant as fake murder), and the spirit of a law is a thing I have never claimed to understand, and see as irrelevant in the purpose of the law.
Quote:5-I’m not for banning you for having a gun because bad guys use guns to kill people. I’m not for banning legal porn for showing legal things. You have to have a license to own that gun though, it shows you’re competent to use minimalistically and there are no indications that you’ll misuse it. All I’m asking for is the same regulation of the porn industry.
I would like to note that most of the porn sites I have ever been to provide free *samples* and then have a required payment to access the rest. Granted, there are free sites elsewhere... but one should surely beware accessing these if they have any knowledge of the internet at all. I question the 'misuseability' of porn.
Quote:Can gun companies make rocket launchers and guns that can pass metal detectors and guns like the striker 12, but you can’t legally buy/own them here. Here people who choose to have fully automatic weapons have to give up their rights for privacy because the federal authorities can then search your property at any time for no reason. To relate back to topic, if you don’t see a problem with porn, then why should you care if the porn companies monitor your viewing trends to see what you like to focus advertisements and spam to you? If you want to watch porn that fakes illegal activities, fine but I’d suggest monitoring those people so that they don’t cross that line. If you just want the real illegal stuff you’ll have to go to the black market for that, which if porn were sanctioned and regulated would be easier to prosecute.
I do not care if a porn company wishes to know my viewing trends. I do care if people go to the governing body about this data and care to legislate something based upon it.
I like to watch war movies, which include plenty of killing and whatnot. Do you suggest monitoring me and every other human that enjoys history, Stalin? ^_^ But I'm too young for Gulag!
Quote:6- It’s not negative to exploit what you can? I guess that depends on the object of exploitation and whether you feel you’re entitled to exploit it. Would you exploit a record company? A stranger? A friend? An animal? A child?
I personally don’t feel it’s ever justified to exploit something weaker, more fragile or more naive than you are, at the very least.
Not at all. I would exploit a record company. I exploit strangers all the time. I often exploit friends. I don't exploit non-human animals quite to such an extent (although I am a fisherwoman, heh). Children are very easy to exploit and I do to an extent, though they aren't very useful very often.
And what else were you going to exploit? It is justified by the simple selfish principle: it gets me ahead. Granted, I share a portion of my wealth with other people... but never to the extent that it affects my end goals. And I despise naivety in a relationship, so one hardly has to worry about me exploiting anyone on the level of rape
Quote:7-What I mean is I have a distinction between physical attraction and sexual attraction. Perhaps it’s because I don’t see people as sacks of meat first then people after, I give them all inherent personal qualities first. Colloquially, I see a different between “something beautiful” and something “I’d like to bang”. I can appreciate beauty without having to claim it in whatever form that takes. I don’t want to damage our friendship here sae, but I think our baselines for comparison are far too different to meet on a middle ground here. I’m married in a heterosexual relationship, with kids and am far out of my spreading my seed phase. You’re coming from someplace completely different and that’s OK with me.
I don't see people as their form first, but I do see a form first and then possibly declare personhood afterwards. Not all humans are infact people, you know... plenty of them just lack personality.
I give them the quality of 'that is solid and moving and doesn't like me to look at it' to humans I pass along a street or hallway. I then add value to the human according to what I observe of it, and admittedly some of these values are negative additions (ie: that human contains a jerkish personality).
Your sister is beautiful like a sunset is beautiful, then? Which is to say that her beauty arouses an entirely different thing than a sexual desire. I can understand that, I hadn't thought of the expansive word that beauty is at the time i wrote it (I was on one hour of sleep!!!! ^_^)
I'm coming from the position that I do not want any children, yet hardly wish to be tied down to a single partner. I hardly dislike the stability you have in your life, but I could never live with such stability myself I too am far out of a 'spreading my seed phase' (kinda-sorta a woman...)... however: I remain sofar unmoved from the horribly irrational phase of feeling maternal every few days I don't have time for that, see, and I understand rationally that it is in my worst interest to do so, and also that I even can't bear it myself... and some portion of my brain still doesn't get it
I'm willing to drop the issue though, I'm not in here specifically to argue, rather: to learn and have fun while I do so and sometimes help others learn ^_^
Quote:8- Porn teaches (in some cases, not all) unreasonable and illegal ways to have sex, and that’s my point. Why do you need to have a legal porn where the underage lookalike acts all innocent and gets taken advantage of or raped, but then seems to enjoy it after a while?
Because if she didn't seem to enjoy it after a while, it would be too sickening for me to achieve pleasure (which I do largely off of faces). While I can appreciate an "underage lookalike", i can't appreciate innocence or rape. Pain and bondage? Sure. Rape? Nope. Double standard? Possibly. I wouldn't enjoy being fucked without my consent... I would enjoy bondage (probably not pain to such extent though).
Quote:I agree the current sex curriculum is defunct, but I also included home learning. I answer my kid’s questions about sexual topics and they’re only 5 and 8. I would not sit them down in front of porn and use that as a good role model for relationships. I don’t think that being raped, molested, beat or abused is a “good guide” for you want done to yourself or to do to someone else. I’m not talking about a monogamous relationship, or a bi/tri/trans/homo sexual relationship, and I’m not talking about the techniques or any BDSM play or fetishes. I’m talking about the legal porn that mimics illegal activities. That’s the only type of legal porn I have any issues at all with, and because they won’t get rid of it on their own, I suggested regulation, not prohibition of all porn.
Glad that your actually a decent father in this regard ^_^ I like hearing about decent parenting, makes me all happy inside ^_^
My desire to keep porn unregulated and sometimes free is because I haven't passed the legal age of majority where I can just buy it I also think it very unhealthy to keep porn away from "minors". I wouldn't mind being denied the rape category though (considering how scarcely I watch it? hehe ^_^). What other categories were you thinking of regulating though? 0.o
Quote:9-You would have a problem distinguishing between a real war and a fake war if the fake war were intended to make people think it was a real war. I believe that was clearly the porn industries intent, and I’d just like them to be accountable for it. It’s probably never going to happen and I can live with that, but I feel it’s a shame that society would demand such things to satisfy their urges.
A real war is when my territory and their territory are fluctuating. Hard. A fake war is when someone declares war on you and does practically nothing. Real war is not remotely fast. If it were, it would be called 'steamrolling', or 'bulldozing', or 'decimating'... not war. War is not accomplished by one side, but by two or more sides pitted against each other.
Fake war in movies accomplishes some of what war is (battles, strategy, death, failure/success, etc)... but it leaves it in the television. It doesn't permeate my life the way a war does. It is impossible for a fake war to have such an effect on life as a war... war is more than people dying you know: it is people fighting to survive, to not fail, to expand for good. You cannot accomplish this in a movie. A game has some mild capacity to do so, as it is immersing you within the world (therefore if integrated well you can experience such effects as war).
4- The small point you’re conceding to is the only point I’m trying to make, and it’s the reason I don’t support the porn industry and voted no. Rape, child molestation, spousal abuse is illegal because they have victims. People can watch all the porn they want and never think of the repercussions of their influence on demand. I say there is a considerable increase in urges when you bombard your brain with repetitive fantasies and fortify that with chemical rewards in the brain. I think this increases, needlessly, or at the least contributes to an increase in demand and acting on those impulses. I think this does break the intent of the law which is to prevent more victimization, and is poor business ethics to bend the rules so that you’re clearly simulating illegal activity.
6- This is another point we’re just going to have to disagree on. We’re from 2 different worlds on this. I would never intentionally exploit anything I valued, and I value human life. I don’t live by the selfish principle and I don’t instill that in my children. I don’t think we can reach common ground on this either.
8-I would consider regulating anything that pretended to be illegal like: rape, incest, minor sex, abuse, snuff films, etc. Catering to these activities when they are intended to be real encourages people to fantasize about doing said activities and increases their compunction to act them out. They might not necessarily act on them, but let’s face it; Generally, people are weak willed and do whatever pleases them. The very purpose for porn is to get you involved enough emotionally so that it “feels real” which is different than a war movie telling a story. It’s meant to draw you in and it can be addictive. I see legal porn generally as having little productive value compared to real life, but people should be allowed to watch it. I specifically find the fact that there is legal porn faking illegal acts so abhorrent as to warrant regulation.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 3, 2011 at 2:56 pm
If you ask me, porn gets dull after a while. I read Tack's post and I truly understand his point of view but in this stance I find no reason to be agaist porn as I find no reason to banish religion for example. To keep beeing coherent I couldn't possibly banish all religions, just because things like the westboro BC and others happen. Just as All porn can't be banished because of the bad apples.
Pornography gets its drive from an ancient human 'instinct': Sexuality, just as Religion fills the need of certainty and capitalism, human greed(<--stab them when they're not looking ).
So, as it is, I let pornography take his course, just as the others. People will eventually 'grow' above such concepts
RE: Pornography - are you for or against it and why?
April 3, 2011 at 3:33 pm (This post was last modified: April 3, 2011 at 3:35 pm by reverendjeremiah.)
(April 3, 2011 at 8:04 am)tackattack Wrote: “Victims” is a strong word, but you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not talking about the viewers of legal porn being victims. I’m talking about the abused women, men and children resulting from the urges that could or could not be attributed to the use of the legal porn industry fortifying, condoning and exploiting illegal fantasies
To better define my objection. Personally, I see less usefulness in fantasies than real relationships and that is what I mean by I am better without it. If other people feel usefulness in continuing to fantasize, I may consider it a sad state, but I grant them the privilege to do what they think makes them happy. I have no objections with people who choose to view legal porn (even the faked illegal acts). I have an issue with those who can’t control their urges and act on these fantasies damaging men, women and children, often irreparably. Those are the victims I’m talking about. I think fortifying and encouraging those illegal fantasies (which the legal porn industry does) risks more victims rather than saving them by allowing sycophants to act out these fantasies in their own minds over and over.
If you want to make this about things other than porn, other mediums, my religious beliefs, or think I’m using the victimization of real people to elicit an emotional response rather than just stating my beliefs then you’re entitled to, but it distracts the conversation and compounds already big walls of text and erodes to orderliness of discussion.
Now I understand what you are saying about "my life is better off without it". It is a PERSONAL statement and not meant to be a carpet generalization. And I think I understand what you mean in your other posts. You are not against legal porn. You personally think that some legal porn where the actors do things that you dont agree with are questionable, and you frown upon it, but you dont want to make it illegal. You also think this questionable acting, although completely legal, may cause people to act out their fantasies and perform the illegal acts..thus causing victims. You think that legal porn allowing this fantasy to be indulged will ultimately cause a few individuals to act out these fantsies in real life. I can also see where you are honestly trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but at the same time find the industry questionable because of their fringe activities. I can understand this now..at least I hope I got it right.
I think I have a personal example that may be equitable to your views: I do web site building, artwork, animations, games, etc. I asked myself what I would be willing to do and what I would deny before I even started the business. I asked myself; "What would I do if someone asks me to make drawings of pedophilia and offered me large sums of money to do it?" the supreme court said it is legal to do such, as long as it is drawings and not real life people. Now, just because it is legal, does that mean I take the money and do something I am against? The answer is "NO". Even though I agree with the ruling that it is legal, does not mean that I think it is okay.. nor does it mean that I want it to be illegal. I think drawings should be given the greatest amount of freedom as possible in a free republic. It doesnt mean I agree with what is being drawn, but I support their freedom to do such, no matter how distasteful it is to me personally. It may encourage people to go out and do what the drawing has in it... it gets a bit complicated after that, so I am at a loss for words unless we decide to break it down even more...its a conflict. Being an absurdist, I can appreciate the confliction of such a discussion.
Is that the platform you are standing on? If so then I understand you completely.
![[Image: attemptingtogiveadamnc.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img824.imageshack.us%2Fimg824%2F7042%2Fattemptingtogiveadamnc.gif)
).
But now that we have this understanding of abuse to be illegal, I would like to note that there is no perceptible difference to outside observers of faked rape and real rape, hence you could have some point in this small regard. However, they are not breaking the intent of the law 
I don't have time for that, see, and I understand rationally that it is in my worst interest to do so, and also that I even can't bear it myself... and some portion of my brain still doesn't get it 
