(April 29, 2016 at 6:52 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Wryetui Wrote: Now someone who actually answered! Thank you.

However, the size of the universe has nothing to do with the existence of God. And that is what the OP stated, that, as the universe is as big, it cannot the possible (somehow) that God exists. I have seen in this something incorrect and unrelated.

We could talk about how small humans are in relation to the universe and other things like that, but that would be just speculation since nowhere in the Sacred Scripture or the Sacred Tradition it is stated why the Creation is so vast (perhaps because such an information would be quite useless to the people living before Christ, for example), but however big or small is the universe, it has nothing to do with God's existence.

As I just said, the size of the universe can't prove the existence of gods one way or the other. HOWEVER, the vastness of the cosmos and humanity's seeming irrelevance within it does bring into question the idea that a god that has personal interest in human affairs exists.

That is, what we could call, speculation. No matter how big the universe is, I do not know if God has actually done something to that vast universe (I am talking about outside of the Milky Way), but I do know for sure that God has personal interest in human affairs, as you put it. That is proven by the fact that since the very human ever existing (Adam) God never stoped having a relationship with humanity, ultimately seeking to redeem it from the corruption and death that its ancestors (Adam and Eve) have put them to, by uniting the fallen human nature with the divine nature of Christ, God. If you do not believe that God is intimately united with every human person on earth and is present at every movement you make, or every thought you think, you are not talking about christianity, because this is exactly what christianity states.

(April 29, 2016 at 7:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:52 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: As I just said, the size of the universe can't prove the existence of gods one way or the other. HOWEVER, the vastness of the cosmos and humanity's seeming irrelevance within it does bring into question the idea that a god that has personal interest in human affairs exists.

That is, what we could call, speculation. No matter how big the universe is, I do not know if God has actually done something to that vast universe (I am talking about outside of the Milky Way), but I do know for sure that God has personal interest in human affairs, as you put it. That is proven by the fact that since the very human ever existing (Adam) God never stoped having a relationship with humanity, ultimately seeking to redeem it from the corruption and death that its ancestors (Adam and Eve) have put them to, by uniting the fallen human nature with the divine nature of Christ, God. If you do not believe that God is intimately united with every human person on earth and is present at every movement you make, or every thought you think, you are not talking about christianity, because this is exactly what christianity states.

Wow, that has to be a new record.

(April 29, 2016 at 7:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:52 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: As I just said, the size of the universe can't prove the existence of gods one way or the other. HOWEVER, the vastness of the cosmos and humanity's seeming irrelevance within it does bring into question the idea that a god that has personal interest in human affairs exists.

That is, what we could call, speculation. No matter how big the universe is, I do not know if God has actually done something to that vast universe (I am talking about outside of the Milky Way), but I do know for sure that God has personal interest in human affairs, as you put it. That is proven by the fact that since the very human ever existing (Adam) God never stoped having a relationship with humanity, ultimately seeking to redeem it from the corruption and death that its ancestors (Adam and Eve) have put them to, by uniting the fallen human nature with the divine nature of Christ, God. If you do not believe that God is intimately united with every human person on earth and is present at every movement you make, or every thought you think, you are not talking about christianity, because this is exactly what christianity states.

In what way is any of what follows my bold, a "fact"?

(April 29, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 11:15 am)drfuzzy Wrote:

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If you are done with the laughing, I will repeat my question for the third time. How is the size of the universe proof for God's existence or not?

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 Following your logic (?) the Creator of a universe He created ex-nihilo cannot exist because the universe is too big? I am sorry but this is pretty poor. If the other reasonings that led you to atheism are like this one, I am not surprised you are an atheist.

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(April 29, 2016 at 6:05 pm)wiploc Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

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If you are done with the laughing, I will repeat my question for the third time. How is the size of the universe proof for God's existence or not?

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If a Christian says, "Just look at the universe and you can see that it was all made just for us.  What further proof of Jehovah's existence could you need?" then we get to point out that the universe does not look like it was made for us. 

Does a speck of mold in my refrigerator may believe that the refrigerator was made just for it?  If so, that proves more about the mold's mindset than it does about the refrigerator. 

When humans believe in gods because the universe looks like it was designed for us, those humans aren't being logical.  Rather, they are indulging in a fantasy characteristic of egotistical refrigerator mold. 

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In answer to your question:

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Quote:No, this isn't a proof that god does not exist.  Rather, it is a rebuttal to one of the "proofs" that god does exist.

As a proof that gods don't exist, it would be lame.

As a rebuttal, it is a slam dunk.

(April 29, 2016 at 6:30 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:17 pm)Wryetui Wrote: How does the size of the universe tell us God does not exist?

Quote:The size of the universe doesn't say one way or the other whether or not any gods exist, it does however beg the question: if humans are the focus of your creation, why design a universe in which humans are so situated as to appear to be utterly insignificant?

Why was posting memes that I thought answered the question construed as laughing? 
wiploc and Ape posted excellent answers.  I agree with them.
Earth is insignificant even within our own solar system.  There are literally billions of galaxies.  And yet many people actually believe that god created the entire universe 6000 years ago, to house his pet humans.  The vastness of the universe seems (to me) to refute the concept of god that I knew as a child: as a sky-father who knew every thought in your head and freaked out when you said "god damn".   I have come to the point where I also believe that a deity is very unlikely to exist.  And that's where I am.  

(April 29, 2016 at 7:40 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Wryetui Wrote: If you are done with the laughing, I will repeat my question for the third time. How is the size of the universe proof for God's existence or not?

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 Following your logic (?) the Creator of a universe He created ex-nihilo cannot exist because the universe is too big? I am sorry but this is pretty poor. If the other reasonings that led you to atheism are like this one, I am not surprised you are an atheist.

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(April 29, 2016 at 6:05 pm)wiploc Wrote:

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If a Christian says, "Just look at the universe and you can see that it was all made just for us.  What further proof of Jehovah's existence could you need?" then we get to point out that the universe does not look like it was made for us. 

Does a speck of mold in my refrigerator may believe that the refrigerator was made just for it?  If so, that proves more about the mold's mindset than it does about the refrigerator. 

When humans believe in gods because the universe looks like it was designed for us, those humans aren't being logical.  Rather, they are indulging in a fantasy characteristic of egotistical refrigerator mold. 

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In answer to your question:

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Why was posting memes that I thought answered the question construed as laughing? 
wiploc and Ape posted excellent answers.  I agree with them.
Earth is insignificant even within our own solar system.  There are literally billions of galaxies.  And yet many people actually believe that god created the entire universe 6000 years ago, to house his pet humans.  The vastness of the universe seems (to me) to refute the concept of god that I knew as a child: as a sky-father who knew every thought in your head and freaked out when you said "god damn".   I have come to the point where I also believe that a deity is very unlikely to exist.  And that's where I am.  

I considered them as laughing because they did not have any honest intention of debating and gave no information, they are entirely made for the mere purpose of mockery.

I do not see your statements as correct. "Earth is insignificant even within our own solar system", that depends on how do you measure significance. In my opinion, the earth is the only significant part of the universe, since it is the place (known place) where God created humans in His image and likeness.

"There are literally billions of galaxies.", I did not know that, but I am not a follower of blank statements, and I need proof in order to believe things. Where did you get this information from?.

"And yet many people actually believe that god created the entire universe 6000 years ago, to house his pet humans", I believe exactly nothing of what you have posted here.

"The vastness of the universe seems (to me) to refute the concept of god that I knew as a child: as a sky-father who knew every thought in your head and freaked out when you said "god damn", the idea that you can actually do something to change God's emotions (as you said in "freaked out") is entirely made-up. God's can only feel love for you, and all the other feelings are born from the love He feels for you. If you believe "God" will get angry at someone for cursing you are not talking about the christian God at all, because, how can you believe that a created being can change an uncreated being?

"I have come to the point where I also believe that a deity is very unlikely to exist.  And that's where I am.", I see.

The picture you have posted gave no information to our cause. I need to know what means that "God make things happen just for you". What kind of things?

(April 29, 2016 at 6:17 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:05 pm)wiploc Wrote: If a Christian says, "Just look at the universe and you can see that it was all made just for us.  What further proof of Jehovah's existence could you need?" then we get to point out that the universe does not look like it was made for us. 

Does a speck of mold in my refrigerator may believe that the refrigerator was made just for it?  If so, that proves more about the mold's mindset than it does about the refrigerator. 

When humans believe in gods because the universe looks like it was designed for us, those humans aren't being logical.  Rather, they are indulging in a fantasy characteristic of egotistical refrigerator mold. 

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In answer to your question:  No, this isn't a proof that god does not exist.  Rather, it is a rebuttal to one of the "proofs" that god does exist.

As a proof that gods don't exist, it would be lame.

As a rebuttal, it is a slam dunk.

But the OP stated a clear statement for which I did not receive any answer: How does the size of the universe tell us God does not exist?

I did give you an answer:  It does not prove that gods don't exist.  

All it does is refute a particular form of the design argument, and that it does very well.  

Quote: What is the relation between the universe being too big and God "not existing"? No matter how big the universe can be, God still does not dwell in it, since He is outside creation and He is transcendent in His ousia (essence).

As Dietrich would say in Barney Miller, it's a point of view.  

Quote:"When humans believe in gods because the universe looks like it was designed for us, those humans aren't being logical.", I would have to know how exactly those people believe the universe look like it is designed for us and after that declare them logical or not, I am not a follower of blank statements.

You're not likely to get a clear statement of the case.  It is a bad argument, so it works best (is most persuasive) when it is unclear.  Making it clear would make it clearly nonsense. 

Some theist arguments are so bad that they can't be stated at all.  The theists ask questions instead, so that we'll feel obliged to make up an argument for them. 

Example: "If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"  
Proper response: "If you are descended from your grandparents, why do you still have cousins."  [/quote]

(April 29, 2016 at 7:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 6:52 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: As I just said, the size of the universe can't prove the existence of gods one way or the other. HOWEVER, the vastness of the cosmos and humanity's seeming irrelevance within it does bring into question the idea that a god that has personal interest in human affairs exists.

That is, what we could call, speculation. No matter how big the universe is, I do not know if God has actually done something to that vast universe (I am talking about outside of the Milky Way), but I do know for sure that God has personal interest in human affairs, as you put it. That is proven by the fact that since the very human ever existing (Adam) God never stoped having a relationship with humanity, ultimately seeking to redeem it from the corruption and death that its ancestors (Adam and Eve) have put them to, by uniting the fallen human nature with the divine nature of Christ, God. If you do not believe that God is intimately united with every human person on earth and is present at every movement you make, or every thought you think, you are not talking about christianity, because this is exactly what christianity states.

We have a Muslim here named Mystic, nice enough guy, but he also posts large blocks of texts and BOLDs his naked assertions like you just did here. You may be the nicest person, but that doesn't make your god real anymore than when he does it.

How about YOU consider that it is merely something you were sold by someone else and something you merely want to be true?

You really are going to have a difficult time here trying to convince us. We've accepted the age of the planet and universe and the amount of galaxies in it based on scientific fact, not based on old books written by scientifically ignorant humans. It was understandable back then when humans didn't know any better, but we have much better tools to measure the nature of reality now.

Religion is pretending you can use a kaleidoscope in place of a telescope.

Oh the story of Adam and Eve does not explain how humans arrived. Evolution does.

But if you want to talk about the morality of that story, and it is just a story. It is a vile story. You have two innocent characters who were thrust into a position with no prior say going in and know knowledge to consent to what they got put into. God makes a bet with the Lucifer character and that puts the Adam and Eve characters as pawns, poker chips in a rigged bet they had no say in, and get punished for something they didn't set up in the first place.

Oh and neither Christians or Jews are the only religions with creation myths. Oh and Jews, for your information depending on the individual or sect say Lilith, not Eve, was the first woman. But regardless, neither are not the only creation myths in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths

(April 29, 2016 at 8:23 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 29, 2016 at 7:12 pm)Wryetui Wrote: That is, what we could call, speculation. No matter how big the universe is, I do not know if God has actually done something to that vast universe (I am talking about outside of the Milky Way), but I do know for sure that God has personal interest in human affairs, as you put it. That is proven by the fact that since the very human ever existing (Adam) God never stoped having a relationship with humanity, ultimately seeking to redeem it from the corruption and death that its ancestors (Adam and Eve) have put them to, by uniting the fallen human nature with the divine nature of Christ, God. If you do not believe that God is intimately united with every human person on earth and is present at every movement you make, or every thought you think, you are not talking about christianity, because this is exactly what christianity states.

We have a Muslim here named Mystic, nice enough guy, but he also posts large blocks of texts and BOLDs his naked assertions like you just did here. You may be the nicest person, but that doesn't make your god real anymore than when he does it.

How about YOU consider that it is merely something you were sold by someone else and something you merely want to be true?

You really are going to have a difficult time here trying to convince us. We've accepted the age of the planet and universe and the amount of galaxies in it based on scientific fact, not based on old books written by scientifically ignorant humans. It was understandable back then when humans didn't know any better, but we have much better tools to measure the nature of reality now.

Religion is pretending you can use a kaleidoscope in place of a telescope.

"but that doesn't make your god real anymore than when he does it.", and how is that, exactly? I will never understand why most of the atheists stop when they hear the "multiple God argument", just like you did here: "How is your God better than his God?!". For me, this is poor science and an anti-intellectual attitude.

"How about YOU consider that it is merely something you were sold by someone else and something you merely want to be true?", I am asking this exact question to you.

"You really are going to have a difficult time here trying to convince us.", convincing you of what, exactly? I am not here in this forum to convince anyone, I am here for the mere pleasure of debate.

"We've accepted the age of the planet and universe and the amount of galaxies in it based on scientific fact, not based on old books written by scientifically ignorant humans.", exactly as I do, where did you get the assumption that I do not believe that the age of the galaxies and the amount of them are scientifical? What book are you talking about? What exactly were you trying to say here?

"Religion is pretending you can use a kaleidoscope in place of a telescope.", nice metaphor, I didn't know you liked poetry. But I do not accept blank statements so in order for me to believe you, you will have to deffend your phrase. If not, I will not.

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(April 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Oh the story of Adam and Eve does not explain how humans arrived. Evolution does.

But if you want to talk about the morality of that story, and it is just a story. It is a vile story. You have two innocent characters who were thrust into a position with no prior say going in and know knowledge to consent to what they got put into. God makes a bet with the Lucifer character and that puts the Adam and Eve characters as pawns, poker chips in a rigged bet they had no say in, and get punished for something they didn't set up in the first place.

Empty statements everywhere, I see.

It is a cool story you told me here, I have never heard it before. Where can I get this information? My information about Adam and Eve come from the Sacred Scripture interpreted through the Sacred Tradition but it is nothing like that. Where can I get your information from?

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(April 29, 2016 at 8:37 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Oh and neither Christians or Jews are the only religions with creation myths. Oh and Jews, for your information depending on the individual or sect say Lilith, not Eve, was the first woman. But regardless, neither are not the only creation myths in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths

I was expecting for you to actually make a point here, but you didn't. Did you wanted to say something?