(May 12, 2016 at 2:33 pm)TheMuslim Wrote:

Quote:It is nonsensical to say that the existence of nothing is a type of existence.

It is nonsensical to say that there is no reality. If the claim "there is no reality" is taken to be true, then that would mean that reality really doesn't exist. But if reality really doesn't exist, its non-existence is real - its non-existence is a real phenomenon and state of affairs - its non-existence is a reality. No particular can exist without a universal (even if there is only one instance of a reality, it implies that a reality exists). Hence we have a contradiction - which is precisely why saying such a thing ("there is no reality") is nonsensical.

You may even ignore the above exposition and just read the following and then tell me what part of it you don't understand (or what part of it you don't agree with for logical reasons).

If you say that reality's non-existence is a reality, then you're contradicting yourself (you're saying there's no reality, and yet also implying that that's a reality - hence admitting that a reality exists).

If you say that reality's non-existence is not a reality, then you're saying precisely what the demonstration is saying (i.e. reality's non-existence is not a reality).

Then, can god make a rock so heavy that it cannot move it.  Same train.

(May 12, 2016 at 3:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Still bickering over irrelevance rather than confronting the shortcomings of ones argument..I see.

-and this is why apologists can't have nice things.

At least the OP is not Wahaabi-Salafi. All they can do is robotically utter Tasbih all day long. At least the OP us trying to make sense. Even though the fact that Shias cannot agree on how man Imams there are before Mahdi is very damaging to them? Is it five, seven or twelve? Who knows?

Has the OP given any reason yet why we should care about any of this?

Sometimes I get the answer, "Don't you find it interesting? Don't you want to learn more about it, if it's real?" Sure, it would be interesting if it was real. But I wouldn't be able to learn about it. It's always defined to be utterly beyond the reach of any method of study. It has to remain in that group of things that are indistinguishable from nothing, to stop someone accidentally making a falsifiable claim about it.

(May 12, 2016 at 11:00 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(May 12, 2016 at 2:33 pm)TheMuslim Wrote: It is nonsensical to say that there is no reality. If the claim "there is no reality" is taken to be true, then that would mean that reality really doesn't exist. But if reality really doesn't exist, its non-existence is real - its non-existence is a real phenomenon and state of affairs - its non-existence is a reality. No particular can exist without a universal (even if there is only one instance of a reality, it implies that a reality exists). Hence we have a contradiction - which is precisely why saying such a thing ("there is no reality") is nonsensical.

You may even ignore the above exposition and just read the following and then tell me what part of it you don't understand (or what part of it you don't agree with for logical reasons).

If you say that reality's non-existence is a reality, then you're contradicting yourself (you're saying there's no reality, and yet also implying that that's a reality - hence admitting that a reality exists).

If you say that reality's non-existence is not a reality, then you're saying precisely what the demonstration is saying (i.e. reality's non-existence is not a reality).

Then, can god make a rock so heavy that it cannot move it.  Same train.

I usually don't reply to stuff that doesn't hold logical relevance to the soundness of the demonstration I'm inquiring critique for, but I'll reply to this because this is a question I've heard before multiple times and found the Imams to have given interesting answers - from the same book I found the DOTV in.

A Commentary on Theistic Arguments, pages 204-205: "In his al-Tawhīd, al-Shaykh al-Sadūq, blessings be with him, narrates that two different individuals asked Imam Ja‛far al-Sādiq, peace be with him, whether God has the power to place the earth in an egg-sized tiny container in a way that neither the earth loses its size nor the container expands. The Imam, peace be with him, gives one of them a rhetorical (jadalī) answer and the other a demonstrative one. In response to the first inquisitor, the Imam, peace be with him, says “Open your eyes, do not you see the expansive heavens and the earth? How God has placed something which is bigger than the earth in your eyes which are smaller than an egg.” This answer was sufficient to satisfy the inquisitor. In his answer to the second individual, while stressing that by His infinite power, God can do everything, the Imam says “What you have asked is impossible and nothing (lā shai’).” That is, although God is powerful to do everything, however, you have not asked about a “thing”; therefore, what you have inquired about is not an exception to the Divine omnipotence; rather, it is excluded from the domain of power. This response of the holy Imam, peace be with him, comprises a profound philosophical analysis about impossible phenomena that an impossible thing has a notion the extension (misdāq) of which is “nothing"."

(May 13, 2016 at 9:04 am)TheMuslim Wrote: [quote=In response to the first inquisitor, the Imam, peace be with him, says “Open your eyes, do not you see the expansive heavens and the earth? How God has placed something which is bigger than the earth in your eyes which are smaller than an egg.” This answer was sufficient to satisfy the inquisitor.

The imam equivocated and the questioner was satisfied?  

Quote:In his answer to the second individual, while stressing that by His infinite power, God can do everything, the Imam says “What you have asked is impossible and nothing (lā shai’).” That is, although God is powerful to do everything, however, you have not asked about a “thing”; therefore, what you have inquired about is not an exception to the Divine omnipotence; rather, it is excluded from the domain of power. This response of the holy Imam, peace be with him, comprises a profound philosophical analysis about impossible phenomena that an impossible thing has a notion the extension (misdāq) of which is “nothing"."

-and after equivocating, pretended that his god was somehow limited by logical impositions which he -cannot- remain faithful to?

Sounds to me like the Imam was having some fun at the expense of two dim questioners.

(May 13, 2016 at 9:04 am)TheMuslim Wrote: The Imam, peace be with him, gives one of them a rhetorical (jadalī) answer and the other a demonstrative one. In response to the first inquisitor, the Imam, peace be with him, says “Open your eyes, do not you see the expansive heavens and the earth? How God has placed something which is bigger than the earth in your eyes which are smaller than an egg.” This answer was sufficient to satisfy the inquisitor

If that's all it took to satisfy the inquisitor, then that inquisitor has very, very, very low standards.
Seeing the entire expanse of the heavens and the earth is not even remotely the same as actually having the entire expanse of the heavens and earth inside our eyes.
So that was a great non-answer on the Imam's part.

(May 13, 2016 at 9:04 am)TheMuslim Wrote: In his answer to the second individual, while stressing that by His infinite power, God can do everything, the Imam says “What you have asked is impossible and nothing (lā shai’).” That is, although God is powerful to do everything, however, you have not asked about a “thing”...

If the earth inside an eggshell is not a "thing", then the entire expanse of heaven and earth in our eyes is not a "thing" either. Which now also makes the Imam two faced for using it as an example in the first question.
And, PS... yes, the earth inside an eggshell is a "thing".

(May 13, 2016 at 9:12 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(May 13, 2016 at 9:04 am)TheMuslim Wrote: [quote=In response to the first inquisitor, the Imam, peace be with him, says “Open your eyes, do not you see the expansive heavens and the earth? How God has placed something which is bigger than the earth in your eyes which are smaller than an egg.” This answer was sufficient to satisfy the inquisitor.

The imam equivocated and the questioner was satisfied?  

Quote:In his answer to the second individual, while stressing that by His infinite power, God can do everything, the Imam says “What you have asked is impossible and nothing (lā shai’).” That is, although God is powerful to do everything, however, you have not asked about a “thing”; therefore, what you have inquired about is not an exception to the Divine omnipotence; rather, it is excluded from the domain of power. This response of the holy Imam, peace be with him, comprises a profound philosophical analysis about impossible phenomena that an impossible thing has a notion the extension (misdāq) of which is “nothing"."

-and after equivocating, pretended that his god was somehow limited by logical impositions which he -cannot- remain faithful to?

Sounds to me like the Imam was having some fun at the expense of two dim questioners.

Quote:If that's all it took to satisfy the inquisitor, then that inquisitor has very, very, very low standards.
Seeing the entire expanse of the heavens and the earth is not even remotely the same as actually having the entire expanse of the heavens and earth inside our eyes.
So that was a great non-answer on the Imam's part.

The context of the passage was about the different ways the Imams responded to different questioners according to the ability of the questioners' intellects. Sometimes they gave rhetorical responses, sometimes logical and/or philosophical ones - they type they gave depended on the inquisitor. This is the 7th century we're talking about here, and the Imams were meant to be guides for everyone - and that requires adjusting to the person you're speaking to. The Prophet and the Imams were heedful of their audience's capacity of comprehension, as the hadith says: "We the congregation of apostles converse to people according to the capacity of their intellects" (this hadith is, in fact, mentioned on the same page as those responses). They were leaders of a religion and knew how to deal with people in order to preach it.

The context is that holy-men gave differing, and ignorant answers to differing, and ignorant people, to accommodate their ignorance and difference?  That explains -alot-.

Quote:I'm a Shia Muslim

Hello.
You mean "from the racist tribal order, that demands all of humanity to bow for an Arab tribe called "Banee Hashem" ".

Or AKA; Ahlo Al Bayt. Let's be more specific and say: the decedents of Ali.
Thank you for making that clear.

Quote:All of the traditional arguments for God's existence have been refuted

In the Quran, this verses say:

Sura 51
( 20 )   And on the earth are signs for the certain [in faith]
( 21 )   And in yourselves. Then will you not see?

Then again, in these verses:

Sura 10
( 100 )   And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah, and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason.

( 101 )   Say, "Observe what is in the heavens and earth." But of no avail will be signs or warners to a people who do not believe

( 102 )   So do they wait except for like [what occurred in] the days of those who passed on before them? Say, "Then wait; indeed, I am with you among those who wait."

( 103 )   Then We will save our messengers and those who have believed. Thus, it is an obligation upon Us that We save the believers
( 104 )   Say, [O Muhammad], "O people, if you are in doubt as to my religion - then I do not worship those which you worship besides Allah; but I worship Allah, who causes your death. And I have been commanded to be of the believers

From what I see; obviously you came late to the event; looks like God preceded you and created enough arguments in heaven and earth; he called them "signs"; and obviously (and check my bold) he ordered you to say "observe what is in heaven and earth" to people who don't believe; instead of copy/paste eye-tearing blocks of words.

Then (and check my bold again; Sura 10 verse 101) he says: there is a type of people who don't believe.
Despite seeing the obvious signs !

I stress my Lord's -and your lord; and atheist's lord- verse:
 But of no avail will be signs or warners to a people who do not believe

Then, he tells you in an other verse:

Sura 27
(9 )   O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

( 10 )   And [he was told], "Throw down your staff." But when he saw it writhing as if it were a snake, he turned in flight and did not return. [Allah said], "O Moses, fear not. Indeed, in My presence the messengers do not fear.

( 11 )   Otherwise, he who wrongs, then substitutes good after evil - indeed, I am Forgiving and Merciful.

( 12 )   And put your hand into the opening of your garment [at the breast]; it will come out white without disease. [These are] among the nine signs [you will take] to Pharaoh and his people. Indeed, they have been a people defiantly disobedient."
( 13 )   But when there came to them Our visible signs, they said, "This is obvious magic."

A hand that turns white; a staff that turns into a serpent; real physical serpent and not something like this chemical reaction (cheap magic tricks):





And finally:

Sura 10
( 96 )   Indeed, those upon whom the word of your Lord has come into effect will not believe,
( 97 )   Even if every sign should come to them, until they see the painful punishment.

And, as Muslims, we should know that people who think they are better than everyone and deserve to be glorified; i.e egoistical fellas who can't see past their own noses, will not believe:

Sura 7
( 146 )   I will turn away from My signs those who are arrogant upon the earth without right; and if they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. And if they see the way of consciousness, they will not adopt it as a way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as a way. That is because they have denied Our signs and they were heedless of them.
( 147 )   Those who denied Our signs and the meeting of the Hereafter - their deeds have become worthless. Are they recompensed except for what they used to do?

So, let me get this straight: do you think, that God needs you, to make people believe?
Did you really, really, really, thought that this life is about that?
Did you really, just missed all these Quranic verses?

Indeed; you guys -Sunna and Shia- waste your lives singing the Qran like a symphony, and worship your demonic leaders.

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason...vi-tehrani

Stop listening to them, have faith in your lord, and read. Just read this book. Don't sing it; read it.

You destroyed the Middle East ! 
Enough !!!

Me?

I'm not your kind of people. 
I'm nobody's kind of people. 




I walk with this book; I walk by faith. That God is truly a God; that doesn't need "turbans" to teach him religion and make arguments for him.