(May 14, 2016 at 5:28 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

Don't dream about it :
If you read my argument, belief is actually up to you. Signs are everywhere.

I have only myself to worry about ^_^

(March 13, 2016 at 7:51 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it means God unites all existence and it's features in an ultimate way.  God is everything but nothing in particular. God is each thing at it's ultimate. God is all things without diversity in his essence though. This what this argument proves. 

The reason why was demonstrated in the OP.

I must ask you, Mystic; why don't you just use the pre-defined arguments that that Quran said?
Here:

Sura 112
( 1 )   Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
( 2 )   Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
( 3 )   He neither begets nor is born,
( 4 )   Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

No. God is "One, the Eternal Refuge, neither begets nor is born, nor is there to hum any equivalent"; hence the word "say" at the begining of the verses.

It makes me wonder: why do you guys complicate it that much? truly, your missionary work is so terrible ! the OP is just long, now I have to ask:

1-If you truly know and feel the position of God, how do you bypass his description to himself, to forge your own ? he already described himself, it doesn't make sense that you claim following him, yet you hide what he said about himself, and only show a big ugly post that came from your imagination. 

2-My previous comment: God already presceeded you and filled this universe with arguments like the sun, the moon, sex, love, how ships float in the sea, how rain falls and plants grow, please Mystic, something that I indeed demand from your missionary school: if you would ever answer me, answer from the Quran !

You left me a very nice reputation in my profile, that I'm ignorant of the Quran and stuff (and I already warned you: missionary tactics don't work with me ! ) so please answer me, from within the Quran itself, without writing blocks of text that would cause me brain damage. 

Morning coffee + cigarette ^_^ Thank God for the blessings !

Quote:You left me a very nice reputation in my profile, that I'm ignorant of the Quran and stuff

Maybe MysticKnight thinks that your too corrupted by 'confused Sunnis'*. Maybe on things like Quran 42:23 or something like that. You don't love the Imams enough. Pity people cannot agree when the Imāmate was supposed to end. Are the Zadis right and it's five*? Or are the Twelvers right and it's twelve? Or are the Seveners right and it's seven? Which is why I stopped being religious: People cannot even agree on core tenets of a religion.

*Some Zaidis are believe in twelve Imams rather than five so it's kind of confusing.
*

(April 24, 2016 at 6:50 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Sunnis want people to believe that the verse 42:23 is unclear and can mean many things. This is there strategy whenever it comes to a verse that manifests the position of the Imams.

(May 15, 2016 at 11:40 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:

Quote:You left me a very nice reputation in my profile, that I'm ignorant of the Quran and stuff

Maybe MysticKnight thinks that your too corrupted by 'confused Sunnis'*. Maybe on things like Quran 42:23 or something like that. You don't love the Imams enough. Pity people cannot agree when the Imāmate was supposed to end. Are the Zadis right and it's five*? Or are the Twelvers right and it's twelve? Or are the Seveners right and it's seven? Which is why I stopped being religious: People cannot even agree on core tenets of a religion.

*Some Zaidis are believe in twelve Imams rather than five so it's kind of confusing.
*

(April 24, 2016 at 6:50 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Sunnis want people to believe that the verse 42:23 is unclear and can mean many things. This is there strategy whenever it comes to a verse that manifests the position of the Imams.

They're all wrong it's 56.72. The tin of Killala Bay Blue High Gloss paint told me.

Completely forgot. Yes, indeed. And the Killala Bay Blue High Gloss paint dried for our sins.

(May 15, 2016 at 11:40 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:

Quote:You left me a very nice reputation in my profile, that I'm ignorant of the Quran and stuff

Maybe MysticKnight thinks that your too corrupted by 'confused Sunnis'*. Maybe on things like Quran 42:23 or something like that. You don't love the Imams enough. Pity people cannot agree when the Imāmate was supposed to end. Are the Zadis right and it's five*? Or are the Twelvers right and it's twelve? Or are the Seveners right and it's seven? Which is why I stopped being religious: People cannot even agree on core tenets of a religion.

*Some Zaidis are believe in twelve Imams rather than five so it's kind of confusing.
*

(April 24, 2016 at 6:50 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Sunnis want people to believe that the verse 42:23 is unclear and can mean many things. This is there strategy whenever it comes to a verse that manifests the position of the Imams.

Ah, the problem is that I asked him to bring me "direct" verses about bowing and submitting to the 12 Imams in an other topic; I mean you can't ask for something simpler than this.. in a previous topic; Mystic showed the same "copy+paste" style that the OP is using here, just to get around this question.

Sigh; I didn't ask for too much ! For God, there are direct verses that tells humanity to obey him. For Mohammed, there are also direct verses. For the rest of the prophets, there are. Where the hell are the 12 Imams?

Puzzling indeed. No matter their order never dominated; even Wahhabies gain more followers (and numbers prove it); it's just you must know that you have a problem when:
1-You display a ghetto-mentality in interaction (Thinking about it; you can understand since Shia were honestly: discriminated against.
2-Accuse anybody who opposes you of "being Sunni". Actually, the verse 42:23 IS NOT ABOUT AHLO AL BAYT. nobody is trying to "want him to believe something".
3-You are waiting for Imam number 12 (aka mehdi), who will dig the graves of famous ancient Muslims and hang them ><

That's some Sunni obsession ! and it's just weird, to criticize the Sunni faith and forget about the Shia faith, that is actually as bad or even worse. The only reason we don't see it's bigotry, is that only a very small amount believes in it.

Ah

I think it's more than a little bit amusing that you would accept verses from the quran as "arguments".  That's probably not what that word means.  You'd have no more reason to accept the verses he points to than he does to accept the verses you might point to. Which -might- have something to do with your disagreements from the outset.

(May 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I think it's more than a little bit amusing that you would accept verses from the quran as "arguments".  That's probably not what that word means.  You'd have no more reason to accept the verses he points to than he does to accept the verses you might point to.  Which -might- have something to do with your disagreements from the outset.

It's all about what the verse "says", and "doesn't say". As simple as that; really.

Actually, the difference between "reading the thing as it really is" and "trying to make it sound like what you want it to sound like", is pretty big. One big difference.

As an example:
1- verse that tells you God is one: well it means -and can only mean- that God is one. An person with a brain damage might think that the verse means "God is actually a number"..You get to choose: either read it as it is, or play games around the words to get out with a result you want.

2-A verse that tells you to cut the hand of thieves. Well..it either means what it really means (cutting the hand of thieves), or ...get around it the way you want; like saying (oh oh, hand is a metaphor for something else ! a hand is not a hand !!!! damn you stupid kuffar you just can't see it !!)

3-A whole book that doesn't contain a single bit about the 12 imams..but for some reason, mystic and his cult knew that the 12 Imams exist !!! and if we don't see it (even though it doesn't exist), we are lost sunnies who can't break the mysticism of the Quran!

Let me be straight; rythm. a syntax is a syntax. semantics are semantics. Left means left and right means right xD

The verses are obvious and there is no way out of it; I'm sorry that's how I see it ! If you want to ignore what words mean (like right meaning right) be my guest; like I care. I actually don't care, really. 

It's obvious. I'm bringing the verse IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES, saying what it says in its own language; it's obvious. Using refrences of "Ayatollah this and that" only add a complication that I call: gymnastics of the words.

(May 15, 2016 at 4:28 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: As an example:
1- verse that tells you God is one: well it means -and can only mean- that God is one. An person with a brain damage might think that the verse means "God is actually a number"..You get to choose: either read it as it is, or play games around the words to get out with a result you want.

A person would be brain damaged for interpreting the verse -exactly- as it's written.....?  I think you may have poisoned both wells simultaneously on that one buddy.  

Quote:2-A verse that tells you to cut the hand of thieves. Well..it either means what it really means (cutting the hand of thieves), or ...get around it the way you want; like saying (oh oh, hand is a metaphor for something else ! a hand is not a hand !!!! damn you stupid kuffar you just can't see it !!)

Like the verse above -really meant- exactly what was written?  This couldn't simply be a suggestion that you remove their ability to steal...which need not necessarrily mean the chopping of hands....as the verse above doesn't -actually- mean that god is the number one?  

We are talking about a book that claims the moon was split in two.....after all......is that one literal...metaphor, pure fiction...? IDK, it's easy to understand all the confusion, as an outsider.


Your intra-faith disagreements don't interest me, I'll leave you to hammer those out with each other.  Only commenting on the difficulties you've created for yourself in approaching your disagreement in this manner.

(May 15, 2016 at 4:43 pm)Rhythm Wrote: A person would be brain damaged for interpreting the verse -exactly- as it's written.....?  I think you may have poisoned both wells simultaneously on that one buddy.  

Hell no!

Saying that "1" itself -the number- is God; like building a shrine with a big statue that looks like number "1" and bow to it, that's what I mean by "brain damage", I should've said "ignorance in language" instead, if I was to be nice, and "a waste of time/ an act of disregard" if I was to be rude ..

Quote:Like the verse above -really meant- exactly what was written?  This couldn't simply be a suggestion that you remove their ability to steal...which need not necessarrily mean the chopping of hands....as the verse above doesn't -actually- mean that god is the number one?  

Is the color "red" really red? is blue "really" blue?
Like does reality really is reality? or is it flipped in reality? is "X" really "X"?

I guess you got my point..The power of syntax and semantics, is to "understand each other" as we speak, i.e taking the meanings -semantics- as they are, represented in the correct form of syntax, or let's say Grammar; the syntax support em semantics, so left means left and right means right, there is no out of it..linguistically I mean

Quote:Your intra-faith disagreements don't interest me, I'll leave you to hammer those out with each other.  Only commenting on the difficulties you've created for yourself in approaching your disagreement in this manner.

BTW, I don't think we even follow the same faith.