Dotard Wrote:Nah, I'll be out in a few years with good behavior. You'll be dead. Then I'll go eat a steak, drink some beer and maybe stop by your grave on the way home for a good piss.

Lets be civil

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dotard Wrote:Stop pooping on the party. This is AF.org. It's par for the course for threads to get detracked. If they didn't, it'd be some other forum.

I dont mean to poop on the party. Its just there are other topics made for this .. and when was the last time someone mentioned Arizona?

(April 14, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: we like knowing that we can personally protect our land from an invading army just by banding together with our neighbors,

I love it when this little gem comes up in gun control debates(as it invariably does)

And yes, I can see where a disorganised bunch of amateur John Wayne wannabes armed with pistols and hunting rifles would be able to defeat a professional army equipped with artillery, tanks, aircraft, helicopters and all of the other paraphernalia that is designed to turn you into strawberry jam........



Then again, maybe not.

Zen has a point, as I said earlier the part of the constitution that allowed citizens the right to bear arms was relevant at the time, and fit for purpose back then. When it was guns against guns. And poorly performing guns at that. The purpose it was written for no longer applies as a real deterrent to help the nations people defend itself either against it's own government or invading forces. A population without training, structure or real fire-power (in today's terms) against a real fighting and organised U.S or invading force simply stands zero chance.

This however dosen't change my opinion on why it is right, considering the culture, the constitution and the country, for American citizens the right to arm themselves.

Most people I run across on forums seem to be genuine, decent and sane

Some, usually (but not always) Americans have the odd area in which they are nuttier than squirrel shit and which they are incapable of discussing rationally:

Eg

Young earth creationists

Homophobes.

Anti gun control freaks who are convinced their society will descend into chaos should they lose their right to shoot people in the head over a parking space or not standing for the national anthem.

Supporters of the perpetual adolescent of political philosophy; Libertarianism.


When faced with a person so afflicted, the kindest thing is to simply humour them and quietly change the the subject

If Americans demand the right to go around armed to the teeth in order to feel safe then go for it.

But please don't get all cut up and cry why,why,why, when incidents like Columbine happen.

Because THAT is the inevitable consequence of having a gun culture where weaponary is so freely available.

There are many reasons we Americans want to own guns.

-This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

-As Americans we simply choose to excercise all of the rights we have to the fullest.

-As americans we want to ensure that we will always and truely be free. Nobody is going to enslave us or take away our right to a free lifestyle. No thug can enslave us with fear. No government can enslave us physically or with unjust laws.

-Our government is one of the people, by the people, for the people, and we will ensure it stays that way.

-"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson

-"To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
George Mason

-"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance, They are the people's liberty's teeth."
President George Washington

-Police cannot be everywhere at once, and it is up to us citizens to protect ourselves, our family and property.

-Without the ability to project an equal force your chances of survival are limited.

-"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troop."
Noah Webster

-You must give up your freedom for security, but with freedom you maintain security yourself.

The best reason why we have them.

-"We are the first modern European nation to achieve complete gun control" - Adolph Hitler
^---- And how did that turn out?----^

Quote:This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

Mythology. The "Minute Men" who responded to the British march on Lexington were members of local militia companies who had been training with muskets. The whole point of the operation the British undertook was to seize supplies allegedly being stockpiled at Concord by the Massachusetts militia.

It was not until those militiamen were whipped into shape (by Von Stueben among others) that we were able to stand up to the British in a pitched battle. The notion of some bozo grabbing his hunting rifle off the wall and going out to shoot redcoats is absurd.

(April 17, 2011 at 1:29 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:This country was not only founded upon the right to bare arms, but also is the reason we won it in the first place.

Mythology. The "Minute Men" who responded to the British march on Lexington were members of local militia companies who had been training with muskets. The whole point of the operation the British undertook was to seize supplies allegedly being stockpiled at Concord by the Massachusetts militia.

It was not until those militiamen were whipped into shape (by Von Stueben among others) that we were able to stand up to the British in a pitched battle. The notion of some bozo grabbing his hunting rifle off the wall and going out to shoot redcoats is absurd.

The communities were, for the most part back then, very small. Maybe the millitia were employed by companies in bigger cities, such as Mass or Phily, but as far as most of the other communities it was very much farmers and landed gentry who made up the majority of the local militia which was a custom going back to the early colonial days to be on the watch for any local native attacks. Many would be socialising in local Free Mason chapters, which explains alot of why the founding leaders were so heavily Mason affiliated. Min is only part right. Some of it was company endorsed surely. Some of it was also community endorsed.

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(April 17, 2011 at 3:06 am)Zen Badger Wrote: If Americans demand the right to go around armed to the teeth in order to feel safe then go for it.

But please don't get all cut up and cry why,why,why, when incidents like Columbine happen.

Because THAT is the inevitable consequence of having a gun culture where weaponary is so freely available.

Wait..are you saying that because our country allows its citizens to arm itself, that we should not get upset when a murder spree happens? And how exactly does a community allowing the right to bare arms become the "inevitable consequence" of kids shooting up schools?

I personally think it is a culture of fear, racism, cut throat capitalism, and the acceptance of bullying those different than you as "normal kid stuff" as being the reason for the shootings.

(April 17, 2011 at 12:45 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(April 14, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: we like knowing that we can personally protect our land from an invading army just by banding together with our neighbors,

I love it when this little gem comes up in gun control debates(as it invariably does)

And yes, I can see where a disorganised bunch of amateur John Wayne wannabes armed with pistols and hunting rifles would be able to defeat a professional army equipped with artillery, tanks, aircraft, helicopters and all of the other paraphernalia that is designed to turn you into strawberry jam........

common Zen, first of all, the point you're "picking on" was not remotely at the heart of my point.
Secondly, I think any army would at least consider the fact that the army they are fighting has an additional 100 million armed civilians on their home front. And as for the John Wayne remark - I would remind you that it was nothing but farmers and pig ranchers that fought the war for our independance and won ... not a well-trained army.
And again none of that even matters because that was just a small random point about why Americans want to keep their right to bear arms. Why not mention the other points? And do you want the American people to lose yet another right? What's so wrong with the right to own a gun? I own several - I have no wish to shoot anyone - ever. Why shouldn't I be allowed to own a gun?

Here is the whole post I made ... in case someone reading this doesn't know what we're referring to.

Quote:Yes, the US is far from perfect, and yes we still have a lot of crazies walking around with dark thoughts and violent ideas. That does not change the fact that most of us are ordinary people who want to protect our rights. Rights that most of the world don't have. And one of those rights is the Right to Bear Arms. If your country does not allow you this right and you're fine with that - than thats great for you, but that doesn't work for us. We like hunting, we like sport shooting, we like knowing that we can personally protect our land from an invading army just by banding together with our neighbors, and we like knowing that we can protect our families in their beds with deadly force. WE LIKE being American and MOST of us will not apologize for that. You don't want guns. Fine. We do and just for the record - the people you see killing other people on TV by means of a firearm - well, most of those dangerous people are using firearms illegally anyway and gun laws would never have saved us from them ..... just like anti-theft laws in Europe won't save you from thieves. People are assholes and they will take ANYTHING, including a gun, and turn it into something they can control others with.

Zen, although I clearly disagree with you, I still respect your right to lobby against me. That's America. Admittedly, I do hope you don't succeed at helping to take yet another right of mine away.

I think it's funny how the british think their country is so great and superior it make's them believe their better than everyone else in the world. If the queen of england was to tell somebody to roll over they would glady do it. If the president of the united states came and told somebody to roll over, we would say you first.