(March 6, 2011 at 11:12 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Has it made any acurate predictions?
or is it just reverse engineered to meet the facts?

In a way, all scientific theories are "reverse engineered", at least to begin with.

I you're developing a model of something, and it doesn't agree with the data that already exists about the phenomenon you're trying to describe, then there's something wrong with your model.
So you better make sure it does agree right from the start.
Then you can use those constraints (current data) to look for other consequences of the model i.e make predictions.

As far as I'm aware modified gravity hasn't been used to make ANY predicitions, nevermind accurate ones!

Hi Chaps...

sorry to bursted your bubbles but dark matter and the bogus theory above - are exactly that bogus theories.

I think its probably going to be a phenomenon that we (or budding zweisteins) would never be able to explain.

If dark matter does exist then is it at a perfect balance in EVERY galaxy, from trillions of billions of galaxies, where it keeps order and prevents mass mayhem. Why is it not in some galaxies the stars on the outer edge could be going too fast, or too slow? (thus causing mayhem and 'randomness' - in which our universe is built???)

Next youll be saying dark matter is relative to matter....? Then why not the matter in our solar system? why only on a galactic scale?

Ich bin muslim (yeah yeah save your curses for an anti islamic forum)....the quraan tells us angels are keeping order in the stars - so my personal belief would therefore be this order is being kept by angels, and not dark energy/mass. Although it would be feasible to decsribe the angels as dark energy since we cannot see them, and they have a impact/force which cannot be seen or measured.

Angels are described as being made of 'light', which is kinda like a metaphore as humans are made from 'earth', although our mass is physically from the earth, it is not just mud we're made from, so angels are made from light, or various components of light.

Quraan also tells us the angels travel in 1 earth day the same distance as the moon in 10,000 years, if you derive a speed from there the answer is 299,999.457m/s. So if the book written 1400 yrs ago tells me that, then when it says angels regulate the stars, i believe it.

Its not all about killing jews and pagans you know, only most of it is. (sarcy comment).

It has also told us about the big bang, the steadily expanding universe, how the heavens and the earth were once joined but are now split, and also the numerous forms of life between earth and the heavens which we will never see.

it also tells us about a very violent end, as violent as the beginning, the universe cant be eternal..it wil end one day, how we will never know, but we could always theorise, how could it end if its expanding? it cant be a black hole scenaria....or maybe that particular verse was referring to galaxies....cant remember....sorry chaps.

Interestingly tho (completely off topic) - it does say mankind will travel to the heavens and beyond but they will not realise it.

(April 20, 2011 at 7:43 am)alemcodon Wrote: If dark matter does exist then is it at a perfect balance in EVERY galaxy, from trillions of billions of galaxies, where it keeps order and prevents mass mayhem. Why is it not in some galaxies the stars on the outer edge could be going too fast, or too slow? (thus causing mayhem and 'randomness' - in which our universe is built???)

Dark matter is nothing to do with 'keeping order'. If you're going to argue against something, at least make sure you actually understand what you're arguing against.

(April 20, 2011 at 7:43 am)alemcodon Wrote: Next youll be saying dark matter is relative to matter....? Then why not the matter in our solar system? why only on a galactic scale?

The interstellar spaces between star relative to stellar masses are orders of magnitude greater than the spaces between solar system planets relative to planetary masses.
Therefore, the mass density of the solar sytem is considerably greater than the average galactic density. So the solar system is (relatively) more strongly gravitationally bound than a galaxy, allowing the influence of any homogeneous, gravitationally interacting matter field to have a much more obvious effect on galactic dynamics than on solar system dynamics.

(April 20, 2011 at 7:43 am)alemcodon Wrote: Ich bin muslim (yeah yeah save your curses for an anti islamic forum)....the quraan tells us angels are keeping order in the stars - so my personal belief would therefore be this order is being kept by angels, and not dark energy/mass. Although it would be feasible to decsribe the angels as dark energy since we cannot see them, and they have a impact/force which cannot be seen or measured.

Angels are described as being made of 'light', which is kinda like a metaphore as humans are made from 'earth', although our mass is physically from the earth, it is not just mud we're made from, so angels are made from light, or various components of light.

Quraan also tells us the angels travel in 1 earth day the same distance as the moon in 10,000 years, if you derive a speed from there the answer is 299,999.457m/s. So if the book written 1400 yrs ago tells me that, then when it says angels regulate the stars, i believe it.

Nice try, but false.
Firstly, one of the observable quantities you need to make that calculation is the average orbital radius of the moon. Since your value is given to 9 significant figures, it must follow that you know the average lunar orbital radius to the same number of significant figures. And we simply don't know it to that degree of precision.

Secondly, let's actually do the calculation.
Taking the average lunar orbital radius as 0.38 megametres and the orbital period as 27.3 days, all you need to do is find the circumference of the moons orbit, 2*pi*r, multiply by 10000years(converted to days)/27.3days to get the number of orbits in 10000 years and divide that by the number of seconds in a day.

What you get is 3.3*10^9, which is 10 times too large. For a more accurate calculation you would also need to account for the motion of the earth around the sun, and the motion of the sun around the galactic centre, which would only increase the distance travelled by the moon, thus increasing your calculated speed.

But if you'd actually bothered to do the calculation for yourself instead of being a credulous idiot that repeats everything the Imam tells him in parrot fashion, you'd know that.

(April 20, 2011 at 7:43 am)alemcodon Wrote: It has also told us about the big bang, the steadily expanding universe, how the heavens and the earth were once joined but are now split, and also the numerous forms of life between earth and the heavens which we will never see.

Yeah sure, and by the same kind of dishonest interpretation, Nostradamus also predicted my next bowel movement.

Mr Phil...

Dark matter has everything to with keeping order because if the stars are orbiting at different speeds, they would be alot more collisions, any physicist will tell you there is ORDER in the universe, in the galaxies – its a word they like to use, and its something which cannot be explained.

If you have solved this problem then you’d be a nobel prize winner by now....

Whatever this phenomenon is it helps to keep a peace in each and every galaxy – thus allowing ‘evolution’ of solar systems, and life....(in our case).

Even when two galaxies collide, they merge into one and the number of collisions between stars is virtually non-existent. Ive heard many physicists in their explanations of galaxies and the stars within galaxies, its like an invisible force that keeps them from colliding, this ‘ORDER’ also prevents galaxies from colliding (more frequently than what they do), prevents the stars from colliding (within galaxies).

You call it dark energy, dark mass – but you know that’s just gibberish. Its another aspect of design you refuse to accept and because you can’t explain it.

Its funny why you’ve taken a harsh tone to me, just because i said i was muslim? Pathetic!!! and you try to come across an intellect?? You dnt even know the significance of the very belief you base your life on.

My statement “Next youll be saying dark matter is relative to matter....?” was not a question from me, but a guess as to your answer/question for why every galaxy seems to have enough dark energy to keep the stars at the same realitve speed to the stars nearer the centre?

Does this mean a large galaxy has a stronger dark energy than a small galaxy? Explain.

IF, dark energy is stronger in a large galaxy (well observation would tell you yes), then that dark energy must be directly related to and correlating with the amount of mass present in that galaxy

The speed of light is something I NEVER heard any imam mention.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

There is a link to the proper calculation, it has to be calculated outside of gravitational forces.

I have followed the calculation, and the other islam haters out there (your long lost brothers) try to distort this calculation by using 24hrs as the length of a day....

Im not gonna bother picking out all the discrepancies in your calculations, go through the calc without making assumptions visit the link above....

Quote: instead of being a credulous idiot that repeats everything the Imam tells him in parrot fashion

Its funny how as soon as you mention islam, its like igniting a flame.....

Why the anger? If anything the quraan virtually agrees 100% with your version of the universes creation...except for your definition of dark energy...which could still be right.

Its not dishonest interpretations....

Quote: "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" 21:30

Quote: "Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: 'Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We do come (together), in willing obedience.' So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.41:11-12)

IN THIS CONTEXT ‘HEAVENS’ REFERS TO THE PLANETS AND NOT PARADISE.

Another verse i will find for you also clearly states the the sun, the earth, the moon and the 7 sevens heavens each has their prescribed courses....talking about their orbits, 7 heavens, 7 other planets, Pluto is not a planet.

Ill quote you and refer you to more science later....

BTW i aint come here to get cursed at for being muslim, so please next time, try to behave like what you want to portray - talking about parrot fashion repeating....where did all your ideas about islam come from?

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: Mr Phil...

Dark matter has everything to with keeping order because if the stars are orbiting at different speeds, they would be alot more collisions, any physicist will tell you there is ORDER in the universe, in the galaxies – its a word they like to use, and its something which cannot be explained.

Why the universe started in a low entropy state is an unsolved question.
But this has NOTHING to do with dark matter.

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: Even when two galaxies collide, they merge into one and the number of collisions between stars is virtually non-existent. Ive heard many physicists in their explanations of galaxies and the stars within galaxies, its like an invisible force that keeps them from colliding, this ‘ORDER’ also prevents galaxies from colliding (more frequently than what they do), prevents the stars from colliding (within galaxies).

No, it's conservation of angular momentum along with the fact that the volume of empty space in a galaxy is many orders magnitude larger than the volume of all the stars.

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: You call it dark energy, dark mass – but you know that’s just gibberish. Its another aspect of design you refuse to accept and because you can’t explain it.

What we can't explain is flat rotation curves and accelerated expansion.

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: Its funny why you’ve taken a harsh tone to me, just because i said i was muslim? Pathetic!!! and you try to come across an intellect?? You dnt even know the significance of the very belief you base your life on.

I take a harsh tone with anyone who spouts crap and calls it science, muslim or otherwise.

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: Does this mean a large galaxy has a stronger dark energy than a small galaxy? Explain.

Dark energy is the accelerated expansion of the universe, its meaningless to say that "a galaxy has X amount of dark energy"

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: The speed of light is something I NEVER heard any imam mention.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

There is a link to the proper calculation, it has to be calculated outside of gravitational forces.

How can you calculate how far the moon will move without gravity?
Gravity is what makes it move...

(Summer, if you're in this thread, right about now would be a great time for one of those double facepalms )

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: other islam haters out there (your long lost brothers) try to distort this calculation by using 24hrs as the length of a day....

HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!!!

(April 20, 2011 at 12:00 pm)alemcodon Wrote: Im not gonna bother picking out all the discrepancies in your calculations, go through the calc without making assumptions visit the link above....

Please do, because I don't think you can

It's really not worth talking to people who would borrow from what they conceive to be science in order to push anti-science.

alemcodon, you're an imbecile. and no. it's not 'just because you're a muslim'.

(April 20, 2011 at 7:43 am)alemcodon Wrote: Hi Chaps...

sorry to bursted your bubbles but dark matter and the bogus theory above - are exactly that bogus theories.

I think its probably going to be a phenomenon that we (or budding zweisteins) would never be able to explain.

If dark matter does exist then is it at a perfect balance in EVERY galaxy, from trillions of billions of galaxies, where it keeps order and prevents mass mayhem. Why is it not in some galaxies the stars on the outer edge could be going too fast, or too slow? (thus causing mayhem and 'randomness' - in which our universe is built???)

Next youll be saying dark matter is relative to matter....? Then why not the matter in our solar system? why only on a galactic scale?

What do you mean there is no Dark Matter? Actually the website you referred to http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm says that Dark Matter is mass in the extra dimensions of String Theory, and that it is the Seven Heavens in the Quran. You can also find it here: http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_...eavens.htm

I'm sorry, but you can't use string theory to lend weight to the Quran.

To start with the comparison is ridiculous and secondly, string theory has yet to be proven and at the moment remains firmly fixed in the realm of metaphysics.

It is to my knowledge that we discoverd dark matter, because their was an invisible material bending the light in pictures we took of inter-steller space. Seem's to me dark matter is simple an easy way to say matter we cannot see. Sound's to me like it's completely real.