(June 8, 2016 at 8:40 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: I think it's time we reset the priorities of this movement. 

(Bold mine) I was cool reading this thread. This is how far I got.
Errrrrrrrm. Nope.

Why shouldn't topics such as LGTB rights, the right to choose, etc. be a part of a self-titled Reason Rally when the bulk of the opposition to them comes from religious extremism? I mean, there's more to atheism-as-politics than raging against creationism, which is really the lowest hanging of the fruit. We're living in a country in which certain states are trying to imprison doctors for performing abortions under any circumstances and members of the general public for using the bathroom they identify with for purely religious reasons. If that's not worth at least an honest and frank discussion about the perniciousness of religion and law intertwining and government overreach, what is?

Or is the problem that reality is far more complex and difficult to change than various YouTube fuckwits and their minions originally thought, and now that there's real work to be done, work that will inevitably require compromise and collaboration with other marginalized populations, it's easier to return to the safety of the echo chamber and deride them for ruining your fun?

I'll make a great atheist movement now. See you in 15.

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"Mocking religion has gotten old for most, IMO."

Is that why people still get popular for doing it? I mean Armoured Skeptic is fairly new to the scene and all he does is attack Josh Feurstein. AronRa still manages to pull in views by primarily attacking religion and creationism. His series "Refuting The Irrefutable Proof Of God" is his newest one, and it has drawn in a lot of views.

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"I really hate it when people capitalize the word "atheism" when it's not part of a title or at the beginning of a sentence. It is not a proper noun."

Yeah well, I don't care, I'll continue doing it when I feel like doing so.

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"On top of that, atheism, in and of itself, has no right to a movement. It's a null position, and it's certainly not a "SWJ movement", whatever that is. There are a lot of atheists who are concerned with social issues. That probably isn't going to change."

Maybe not atheism per-say, but anti-theism and secularism most certainly have a right to a movement. Besides, we're all on this website. Atheists can hold whatever political position they like, but it's tiring to see those political views infest the secular movement. Do you go around finding people who are having a conversation about golf and force them to have a conversation about hockey?

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). That's it. We'd all be pretty boring if we didn't have other things we were interested in and passionate about."

Sure, but when there's a gathering of people who come together to talk about secularism, they're going to be driven away by SJW's who hijack the movement.

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"They don't. A lot of atheists are concerned with those things."

Ok? So why don't they talk about these things away from the secular movement? Maybe start their own movement dedicated to just that?

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"Who have? Atheists?"

Look at them disinviting Richard Dawkins from talking at a science conference because of his posting of a funny YouTube video, or trying to get Dr. Phil Mason fired for him expressing his opinions online. Yeah, regressive leftists, many of whom are in fact atheists.

Quote:

Quote:The_Empress

"Have you heard the "herding cats" analogy? People got bored with the obvious and stopped being interested. I myself can only read or hear the same shit so many times before I'm completely bored. The only thing to say about atheism, in and of itself, is that it's a lack of belief in deities. That's it."

Sure, but once again, when there is a movement talking about secularism and secular issues, there shouldn't be a bunch of whining cry babies that need safe spaces taking over the movement and ruining it. They should start another movement that is just about these topics if they care about them so much.

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Quote:Homeless Nutter

"What movement? I don't remember being handed a card, or anything... I don't believe in god - it's not an ideology, or a sub-culture, not even a life-style. It's just my position in relation to deities. I'm not an "Atheist" - I'm an atheist..."

Fairly sure there was a rather large secular movement and a movement to get atheists to come out of the closet just a few years ago. Ah, but it's died down now, because people want to make it about feelings and really a lot of trivial shit.

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"Well, the novelty has worn off. Move on."

That's why TheArmouredSketpic and AronRa still get a lot of views on their newer atheism videos, huh?

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"Lol... No. Up until very recently creationism was almost exclusively USA problem. In Europe and most of Asia even the religious people learned to live with the concept of evolution, while in the more backward (read - theocratic, read - islamic) parts of the world there never was a discussion, because they have many more social and political issues to solve, before there can be a free discourse on philosophy and cosmology over there."

I am an American, so I'm very concerned about said problem in my country. 

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Quote:Homeless Nutter

"If you say so. I'm not seeing it."

Then you're blind.

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"I don't know. You tell me. If Thunderf00t is an "Atheist", and "Atheism" is anything like atheism, then what does his grudge against feminism have to do with "Atheism"? Oh, that's right - views. As I said before - the novelty of atheism on internet has worn off. People, who might have gained popularity by expressing atheistic views, especially on social issues, have to move on and expand, if they want to remain relevant and keep that ad/patreon revenue going. That's why some of them have to pander to - say - misogynists."

Because feminism is a threat to society the same way that religion is. It kills education and indoctrinates them, and if you express any kind of view to the contrary, they try to shut you down, as you just did. Except you know, calling everyone a racist or sexist or misogynist doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work anymore than being called a socialist. You're going to need to find a better way to argue. 

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"Who does? Do you have any facts at your disposal, or are you just ranting on the basis of what you heard on a YouTube video?"

Disinviting Dawkins to speak at a science conference (most likely atheist) because he shared a cartoon on Twitter, and trying to get Dr. Phil Mason fired from a university (by a bunch of atheists) because, Iunno, he made videos about how he thinks Anita Sarkeesian is wrong? Yeah, that's totally a reason to get a scientist who is trying to improve humanity fired from his job. Totally. Thankfully that backfired on them.

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"Yeah, well - you're not helping atheism, by calling it a "movement", or attaching your own agendas, to the simple concept. I don't even have to be a secularist, or mock religion to be an atheist. And if I ever was a card-carrying member of this "Atheism", if there is something that would drive me away, or make me feel ashamed to be associated with such a group - it would be misogyny and bigotry expressed by some of those "great Atheists"..."

So if it's not a movement, why are you on a website dedicated to this non-belief? Sure all you have to do to be an atheist is not believe in god. Sure, alright, and maybe I mispoke and should have said anti-theist or secular movement. Sure alright, but whatever. Most people know what I'm talking about. Or at least, I'd hope they do. 

There is no "misogyny" and "bigotry" expressed in the group. Not for the most part. Not by people like TJ or Thunderf00t. Your false dichotomy that if you're not with the SJW's that you're a racist, sexist, misogynysy bigot is horse shit. That argument isn't working and you're going to need another way to try and win your arguments.

Quote:

Quote:Homeless Nutter

"That - or using Trump's dumb slogan."

Using Trump's slogan was just for laughs.

(June 9, 2016 at 3:46 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote:

Quote:"Mocking religion has gotten old for most, IMO."

Is that why people still get popular for doing it? I mean Armoured Skeptic is fairly new to the scene and all he does is attack Josh Feurstein.[...]

Uhm... What? Have you even looked at Armoured Skeptic's channel? Here are titles of his latest videos:

Is Social Justice Racist? (Part 1)
Is Social Justice Racist? (Part 2)
Time Traveling Black Holes?
What is the Mandela Effect?
Feminism in Disney Movies
Buzzfeed Knights Give Dating Advice
How to Pump and Dump Chicks
Shut up, you have free speech
How to Pick Up Chicks
The Moon is Fake I Guess
Skeptic Reacts: PZ Myers' Blog
...


Where are all those current current atheism-themed videos you were talking about? Because it seems to me, that he makes about 1 of those a year.

Sure - Aaron Ra still makes videos, but none of them gets even a quarter of the views that Amazing Atheist gets for bitching about femi-nazis.

Your point is invalid.

(June 9, 2016 at 3:46 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote:

Quote:"Mocking religion has gotten old for most, IMO."

Is that why people still get popular for doing it? I mean Armoured Skeptic is fairly new to the scene and all he does is attack Josh Feurstein. AronRa still manages to pull in views by primarily attacking religion and creationism. His series "Refuting The Irrefutable Proof Of God" is his newest one, and it has drawn in a lot of views.

I have no idea who two of the three are, and the only reason I know AronRa is because, when I first realized I was an atheist, I watched a couple of his videos on YouTube.

Quote:

Quote:"I really hate it when people capitalize the word "atheism" when it's not part of a title or at the beginning of a sentence. It is not a proper noun."

Yeah well, I don't care, I'll continue doing it when I feel like doing so.

Ok... it's not going to make you look very smart, though.

Quote:

Quote:"On top of that, atheism, in and of itself, has no right to a movement. It's a null position, and it's certainly not a "SWJ movement", whatever that is. There are a lot of atheists who are concerned with social issues. That probably isn't going to change."

Maybe not atheism per-say, but anti-theism and secularism most certainly have a right to a movement. Besides, we're all on this website. Atheists can hold whatever political position they like, but it's tiring to see those political views infest the secular movement. Do you go around finding people who are having a conversation about golf and force them to have a conversation about hockey?

(It's "per se")

Then why don't you specify "secularism" or "anti-theism"? I'm not an anti-theist, so please don't lump me in with them- like you're doing with atheists and SWJs (again, whatever that means).

Quote:

Quote:"Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). That's it. We'd all be pretty boring if we didn't have other things we were interested in and passionate about."

Sure, but when there's a gathering of people who come together to talk about secularism, they're going to be driven away by SJW's who hijack the movement.

You're conflating atheism and secularism; they are not the same.

Quote:

Quote:"They don't. A lot of atheists are concerned with those things."

Ok? So why don't they talk about these things away from the secular movement? Maybe start their own movement dedicated to just that?

I have no idea. Maybe they do. I get involved with lots of things and lots of "movements" that have nothing to do with atheism all the time.

Quote:

Quote:"Who have? Atheists?"

Look at them disinviting Richard Dawkins from talking at a science conference because of his posting of a funny YouTube video, or trying to get Dr. Phil Mason fired for him expressing his opinions online. Yeah, regressive leftists, many of whom are in fact atheists.

Right. Check your logic, dude. Again: who is "them"? Not atheists, but, as you say, "regressive leftists", some of whom happen to be atheists. Another conflation.

Quote:

Quote:"Have you heard the "herding cats" analogy? People got bored with the obvious and stopped being interested. I myself can only read or hear the same shit so many times before I'm completely bored. The only thing to say about atheism, in and of itself, is that it's a lack of belief in deities. That's it."

Sure, but once again, when there is a movement talking about secularism and secular issues, there shouldn't be a bunch of whining cry babies that need safe spaces taking over the movement and ruining it. They should start another movement that is just about these topics if they care about them so much.

The thing is: most of what they're "whining" about they see as secular issues. For example: these crazy religious freedom laws several states in the US are passing affect gay people, transgender people, and... wait for it... atheists, among others.

I'll give you the same advice I often give another AF member: think harder.

(June 9, 2016 at 12:07 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Why shouldn't topics such as LGTB rights, the right to choose, etc. be a part of a self-titled Reason Rally when the bulk of the opposition to them comes from religious extremism?   I mean, there's more to atheism-as-politics than raging against creationism, which is really the lowest hanging of the fruit.  We're living in a country in which certain states are trying to imprison doctors for performing abortions under any circumstances and members of the general public for using the bathroom they identify with for purely religious reasons.  If that's not worth at least an honest and frank discussion about the perniciousness of religion and law intertwining and government overreach, what is?

Or is the problem that reality is far more complex and difficult to change than various YouTube fuckwits and their minions originally thought, and now that there's real work to be done, work that will inevitably require compromise and collaboration with other marginalized populations, it's easier to return to the safety of the echo chamber and deride them for ruining your fun?

You aren't going to get rid of those social issues until you start to attack the root of the problem. The problem is religion and a religiously based culture. Get rid of that and you get rid of most of the social issues. Otherwise you're just trying to hose the fire instead of the coals. 

Creationism is not low hanging fruit. There are still tax funded schools to this day that teach it. That will make it so that kids grow up without a proper understanding of biology, of medicine, etc. That means our kids won't grow up to be anything more than a basic factory worker, even if they had the potential to be something more. No, I'm not knocking the factory workers, before anyone tries accusing me of anything.

They'll never win the abortion case. Get rid of it legally and it'll be back to coat hangers. They'll realize that mistake soon enough. As for bathroom laws, well, nobody really enforces them, and people are boycotting that state. 

Many of these things are worth the discussion, but not when the discussion is about something else entirely. It's like going up to a bunch of people who are talking about golf, and then forcing them to talk about hockey. They're going to get annoyed. 

Real work to be done? By doing what, voting Democrat? Because that's worked so well these past 8 years, right? The only thing accomplished is gay marriage and gays being allowed to serve openly in the military. Ok, so we tackled some of those small issues. What else has been done again?

(June 9, 2016 at 4:08 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Then you're blind.

I'm pretty sure I'm not blind. Maybe you're just stupid? Hmm?...

(June 9, 2016 at 4:08 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Because feminism is a threat to society the same way that religion is.[...]

I see. You ARE stupid. Well - if you get to lump feminism together with religion as target for atheism... sorry - Atheism, then anyone can lump anything else, if they think it's a danger to society. You and your particular paranoia are not special...

(June 9, 2016 at 4:08 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Disinviting Dawkins to speak at a science conference (most likely atheist)[...]

LOL. That's just bullsh*t. You don't even seem to know what the conference was - and no, it was not atheism-themed conference and had nothing to do with "Atheism". And anyway - it's a private organized event - they get to invite, or disinvite whomever they please, for whatever reasons.

I don't know about the other case, but judging by your first example - it's probably b*llshit as well...

(June 9, 2016 at 4:08 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: So if it's not a movement, why are you on a website dedicated to this non-belief?

I'm on many websites - NONE of which are movements.

(June 9, 2016 at 4:08 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Using Trump's slogan was just for laughs.

Oh, I see... Uhm, yeah - that was barrels of laugh...

(June 9, 2016 at 4:27 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 12:07 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Why shouldn't topics such as LGTB rights, the right to choose, etc. be a part of a self-titled Reason Rally when the bulk of the opposition to them comes from religious extremism?   I mean, there's more to atheism-as-politics than raging against creationism, which is really the lowest hanging of the fruit.  We're living in a country in which certain states are trying to imprison doctors for performing abortions under any circumstances and members of the general public for using the bathroom they identify with for purely religious reasons.  If that's not worth at least an honest and frank discussion about the perniciousness of religion and law intertwining and government overreach, what is?

Or is the problem that reality is far more complex and difficult to change than various YouTube fuckwits and their minions originally thought, and now that there's real work to be done, work that will inevitably require compromise and collaboration with other marginalized populations, it's easier to return to the safety of the echo chamber and deride them for ruining your fun?

You aren't going to get rid of those social issues until you start to attack the root of the problem. The problem is religion and a religiously based culture. Get rid of that and you get rid of most of the social issues. Otherwise you're just trying to hose the fire instead of the coals. 

Creationism is not low hanging fruit. There are still tax funded schools to this day that teach it. That will make it so that kids grow up without a proper understanding of biology, of medicine, etc. That means our kids won't grow up to be anything more than a basic factory worker, even if they had the potential to be something more. No, I'm not knocking the factory workers, before anyone tries accusing me of anything.

They'll never win the abortion case. Get rid of it legally and it'll be back to coat hangers. They'll realize that mistake soon enough. As for bathroom laws, well, nobody really enforces them, and people are boycotting that state. 

Many of these things are worth the discussion, but not when the discussion is about something else entirely. It's like going up to a bunch of people who are talking about golf, and then forcing them to talk about hockey. They're going to get annoyed. 

Real work to be done? By doing what, voting Democrat? Because that's worked so well these past 8 years, right? The only thing accomplished is gay marriage and gays being allowed to serve openly in the military. Ok, so we tackled some of those small issues. What else has been done again?

Dude. You are all over the place. Why are you allowed to have pet issues you deem secularism, which you conflate with atheism, but other people aren't?