(June 8, 2016 at 9:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Trying to transform us into a group which has atheism as one of the characteristics is just feeding into theists' strawmen.

Which is the least of my concerns. I'm an individual and being atheist is the least important part of my individuality. I have other, more important issues with this world. And these are not in any way connected to religion.

As always, maybe the US is different from Europe. But I certainly don't feel oppressed by religion, unless you count unachined capitalism to be a religious belief.

(June 9, 2016 at 4:32 am)The_Empress Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 4:27 am)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: You aren't going to get rid of those social issues until you start to attack the root of the problem. The problem is religion and a religiously based culture. Get rid of that and you get rid of most of the social issues. Otherwise you're just trying to hose the fire instead of the coals. 

Creationism is not low hanging fruit. There are still tax funded schools to this day that teach it. That will make it so that kids grow up without a proper understanding of biology, of medicine, etc. That means our kids won't grow up to be anything more than a basic factory worker, even if they had the potential to be something more. No, I'm not knocking the factory workers, before anyone tries accusing me of anything.

They'll never win the abortion case. Get rid of it legally and it'll be back to coat hangers. They'll realize that mistake soon enough. As for bathroom laws, well, nobody really enforces them, and people are boycotting that state. 

Many of these things are worth the discussion, but not when the discussion is about something else entirely. It's like going up to a bunch of people who are talking about golf, and then forcing them to talk about hockey. They're going to get annoyed. 

Real work to be done? By doing what, voting Democrat? Because that's worked so well these past 8 years, right? The only thing accomplished is gay marriage and gays being allowed to serve openly in the military. Ok, so we tackled some of those small issues. What else has been done again?

Dude. You are all over the place. Why are you allowed to have pet issues you deem secularism, which you conflate with atheism, but other people aren't?

This.  The Reason Rally isn't just a fight against creationism.  It's about promoting secularism as politics in an effort to remove religion from policy making.  So, that will encompass:

Creationism
LGBT rights (it doesn't matter that it's one state, what matters is that it's an unnecessary law imposed on a certain population because of religion)
Abortion (the extreme religious want it to happen in back alleys so they can criminalize it and punish both those who have abortions and those who provide the service)
Climate change and environmentalism (plays, in part, with creationism)

I hope it will also cover:

Child abuse.  Our very own Drich exalts in how he beats his children, justifying it by his interpretation of the Bible.  And he's certainly not alone.
Rape.  There's a not insignificant problem of marital rape and abuse, and the overall notion that a woman is property of her husband (helped to be normalized by the Duggars).
Medical laws (vaccinations, faith 'healing' (which, again, plays partially with creationism)).

As far as voting goes, you're right, the Democratic party has mostly failed when it comes to issues such as these.  But what's the alternative?  The GOP would have us go back to the Dark Ages, and no 3rd party candidate is viable.  I'll take the small victories over no victories every day.

So, basically, stop being a naive child.  There's more to secularism than fighting against creationism, which is low hanging fruit since it's utterly uncontroversial with secularists.  I can tell that you have a dim opinion of feminists and others who are interested in other issues, but at some point we're going to have to align ourselves with them if we're going to actually succeed in driving religion out of our government.  Why?  Because religion is a main contributor of their problems - both real and perceived - as well.  And given we're still the least trusted group in America, we're not really in a position to turn down political allies.

(June 9, 2016 at 11:05 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 8, 2016 at 9:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Trying to transform us into a group which has atheism as one of the characteristics is just feeding into theists' strawmen.

Which is the least of my concerns. I'm an individual and being atheist is the least important part of my individuality. I have other, more important issues with this world. And these are not in any way connected to religion.

As always, maybe the US is different from Europe. But I certainly don't feel oppressed by religion, unless you count unachined capitalism to be a religious belief.

It is.  I don't feel 'oppressed' by religion where I live, but I still feel the effect of faith-spawned legislation.

(June 9, 2016 at 11:05 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 8, 2016 at 9:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Trying to transform us into a group which has atheism as one of the characteristics is just feeding into theists' strawmen.

Which is the least of my concerns. I'm an individual and being atheist is the least important part of my individuality. I have other, more important issues with this world. And these are not in any way connected to religion.

As always, maybe the US is different from Europe. But I certainly don't feel oppressed by religion, unless you count unachined capitalism to be a religious belief.

No, it's not a personal concern of mine. But it is a concern for atheists in more heavily religious countries, so I still take it seriously. I want to help shatter the all too common misconceptions/propaganda.

(June 9, 2016 at 8:58 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I'm still just waiting on a definition of 'regressive left' that can't just be applied to anything you don't like.

Martin Luther King Jr.: Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by his character.

Regressive left: Judge a man not by his character, but by the color of his skin.

You can see this with their demonizing of anyone that is white, while giving everyone else special treatment. It's taking us back in some ways to the 50's, where people were judged by their skin color (and their sex) rather than their qualifications and etc. That's being a regressive twat. That isn't progress.

(June 9, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 8:58 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: I'm still just waiting on a definition of 'regressive left' that can't just be applied to anything you don't like.

Martin Luther King Jr.: Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by his character.

Regressive left: Judge a man not by his character, but by the color of his skin.

You can see this with their demonizing of anyone that is white, while giving everyone else special treatment. It's taking us back in some ways to the 50's, where people were judged by their skin color (and their sex) rather than their qualifications and etc. That's being a regressive twat. That isn't progress.

This doesn't really answer my question.  You say "you can see this with their demonizing of anyone that is white, while giving everyone else special treatment," but you and I could look at the same situation, and you could claim that they are 'demonizing white people' and I could say they aren't.  It seems like a very nebulous, emotional response  to any given situation.

Ugh...fundie atheists. Almost as bad as religious fundies, actually.
Why leave church only be told what do do and how to think by some spastic morons who worship at the mighty alter of Youtube?

Most of today's secular movements and organizations...PLURAL, exist to address a host of issues that are of actual importance to atheists AND theists who understand the importance of secularism in governing a free society. Advocating for human rights, particularly those that are infringed upon/denied due to religious overreach is one of those issues; LGBT communities are frequently the the target.

By the way, tagging people as SJWs is nothing more the today's version of denouncing anything that you don't care about as "PC Bullshit". Both are idiotic terms carelessly tossed around to dismiss and discredit the concerns of those who lives one has no vested interest in as being illegitimate, unimportant, and/or "stupid". 

May as well come out and say "Yah...but, you're not me. So, fuck you."

(June 9, 2016 at 1:43 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 4:32 am)The_Empress Wrote: Dude. You are all over the place. Why are you allowed to have pet issues you deem secularism, which you conflate with atheism, but other people aren't?

This.  The Reason Rally isn't just a fight against creationism.  It's about promoting secularism as politics in an effort to remove religion from policy making.  So, that will encompass:

Creationism
LGBT rights (it doesn't matter that it's one state, what matters is that it's an unnecessary law imposed on a certain population because of religion)
Abortion (the extreme religious want it to happen in back alleys so they can criminalize it and punish both those who have abortions and those who provide the service)
Climate change and environmentalism (plays, in part, with creationism)

I hope it will also cover:

Child abuse.  Our very own Drich exalts in how he beats his children, justifying it by his interpretation of the Bible.  And he's certainly not alone.
Rape.  There's a not insignificant problem of marital rape and abuse, and the overall notion that a woman is property of her husband (helped to be normalized by the Duggars).
Medical laws (vaccinations, faith 'healing' (which, again, plays partially with creationism)).

As far as voting goes, you're right, the Democratic party has mostly failed when it comes to issues such as these.  But what's the alternative?  The GOP would have us go back to the Dark Ages, and no 3rd party candidate is viable.  I'll take the small victories over no victories every day.

So, basically, stop being a naive child.  There's more to secularism than fighting against creationism, which is low hanging fruit since it's utterly uncontroversial with secularists.  I can tell that you have a dim opinion of feminists and others who are interested in other issues, but at some point we're going to have to align ourselves with them if we're going to actually succeed in driving religion out of our government.  Why?  Because religion is a main contributor of their problems - both real and perceived - as well.  And given we're still the least trusted group in America, we're not really in a position to turn down political allies.

Gay people pretty much have just about all the rights, aside from the right to make bakeries bake a cake for them. Still need a few more trans rights, but that's about it.

I've met plenty of atheists that were against abortion too. It's easy to let emotions sweep you away in that argument, if you've had a kid and you legit think that an early term fetus is a person. Personally I couldn't give a shit what happens to an early term fetus, prior to about 24 weeks.

I've met many atheists that also think climate change isn't happening, that it's just a conspiracy to get more control over industry and more tax money, as well as for those with stock in green energy to make more money as well. I don't believe that garbage, but many atheists do.

Child abuse is really just a meme. They do it because their parents did it. It's learned behavior. Sometimes religion plays a role, sometimes it doesn't. 

Yeah, there's a few cases where people rape their wives, and idiots like Rush Limbaugh says you can't rape your wife. You see a lot more of this in the Middle East than you do in America, though. A hell of a lot more.

Umm... there are way more leftists that are anti-vaccine and anti-GMO than there are religious right twits. I know I have him in the meme I created, but Bill Maher is one of those douches. 

Bernie Sanders is going to try to create a 3rd party. There are enough millenials out there pissed off with the establishment and Democrats that they may vote for his party, even if it's not Bernie himself.

It's not low hanging fruit when it's being taught to children. Doing so will cause them to grow up never wanting to learn about science, and that's a recipe for disaster in a modern society that depends on science.

(June 9, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Martin Luther King Jr.: Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by his character.

Regressive left: Judge a man not by his character, but by the color of his skin.

You can see this with their demonizing of anyone that is white, while giving everyone else special treatment. It's taking us back in some ways to the 50's, where people were judged by their skin color (and their sex) rather than their qualifications and etc. That's being a regressive twat. That isn't progress.

Do you have any examples of people being demonized for being white, and do you have any evidence that this is something a majority of people on the left agree with?

Or are you just generalizing and entire group based on the actions of a few?

(June 9, 2016 at 5:33 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 4:26 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: Martin Luther King Jr.: Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by his character.

Regressive left: Judge a man not by his character, but by the color of his skin.

You can see this with their demonizing of anyone that is white, while giving everyone else special treatment. It's taking us back in some ways to the 50's, where people were judged by their skin color (and their sex) rather than their qualifications and etc. That's being a regressive twat. That isn't progress.

Do you have any examples of people being demonized for being white, and do you have any evidence that this is something a majority of people on the left agree with?

Or are you just generalizing and entire group based on the actions of a few?

Even if he does provide an example, we might still disagree that it is an instance of 'whites being demonized,' which makes his definition kinda useless.  It basically comes down to whether or not any given white person feels victimized, and feelings of victimization is what people blast the 'regressive left' for in the first place.