(June 24, 2016 at 3:39 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Evidently this will be unpopular on this forum, but I am immensely proud and happy the the UK has voted to leave the EU.

To dismiss everyone who voted to leave as not understanding the issue is just flat out douchebaggery and bitterness. There has been just as much if not more outright stupidity in the remain camp than I have seen for leave. I have been more engaged in this than anyone I know. My family has been more engaged in this than I've ever seen them in any vote before. We watched ALL of the debates. We did in fact listen to both sides.

The significant difference between the two was that the remainers had nothing but negativity to share. By their own admission the EU was broken. By their own admission it was not great to have to negotiate with. The offer they presented to us is that remaining was the lesser of two evils.

Leave camp instead promoted at least SOME hope. Something positive. They promoted democracy. They promoted giving the British people control of their destiny, and as idealistic as you might think it to be, it was a hell of a lot more realistic to me than remaining in a corrupt, rotting, sinking political union that we had no say in joining.

But when it came down to it I did not vote on immigration, the economy, or because I particularly like Nigel Farage or hate David Cameron. I voted because I believe in democracy. In my (dare I say it, reasonably informed) opinion the EU is wholly undemocratic. It is not something I ever signed up for and given the choice I have gladly voted to leave.

As for the whole debate around 'should people have gotten to vote at all'. Yes. They absolutely should. I agree this referendum was not called because of some idealistic vision of democratic justice. It was called because David Cameron made a gamble. But the reality is people went out and voted on an issue that they'd never been consulted on before. The EU is not what it was when people voted in the 70's.

I did not buy the doomsayer stories and I still don't. The "experts". These very people had pushed the pound to its strongest ever just moments before the first votes came in. It was predicted in the economic world at this point just before the first results, that the remain camp had won. Nigel Farage himself admitted defeat before a single vote had came in! If you want to know my reason for not trusting at all what these supposed experts were saying, who had got it wrong countless times before, you need only look at how they got this result so horrendously wrong just moments before Sunderland announced its vote count.

Yeah. I'm chuffed. Call me a xenophobe, insinuate I'm a racist, call me a moron for not paying attention to the experts, tell me I don't know what's good for the country.

Quite frankly, I think this referendum has shown us that the British people are fed up with being patronisingly told what to do. And whatever happens, we'll be alright. This country has survived a lot worse than voting for its independence from a European super state, it'll still be here in 10 years time and I honestly believe we'll be better off.

*just edited some wording, namely saying we'd already left when I meant voted to!

Re democracy, the UK, with its metric fuckton of rotten burroughs, no constituional guarantees, one sided press and emasculated watchdogs, is no better really than the EU. A party can gain a majority on 30 to 35% of the votes cast in a UK election.

(June 25, 2016 at 5:57 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 25, 2016 at 4:52 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: I think you're going to have to use specifics here mate, because I don't know which politician or example you're referring to.

Gosh, even I've heard of UKIP, and I'm just an ignorant American!

Nigel Farage is a racist opportunist, with any luck he will now disappear into the ether, I strongly doubt it though. 


I wanted out of Europe and I'm not a racist bigot, doesn't seem like anybody here is even willing to try to understand that though.

Amazing to watch people's perception of the whole vote here, anybody who dared want out of Europe is being painted as some kind of racist, bigotted, uneducated moron.

The divide over here now is almost as poisonous as the republican/democrat split in the US>

(June 27, 2016 at 4:47 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 3:39 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Evidently this will be unpopular on this forum, but I am immensely proud and happy the the UK has voted to leave the EU.

To dismiss everyone who voted to leave as not understanding the issue is just flat out douchebaggery and bitterness. There has been just as much if not more outright stupidity in the remain camp than I have seen for leave. I have been more engaged in this than anyone I know. My family has been more engaged in this than I've ever seen them in any vote before. We watched ALL of the debates. We did in fact listen to both sides.

The significant difference between the two was that the remainers had nothing but negativity to share. By their own admission the EU was broken. By their own admission it was not great to have to negotiate with. The offer they presented to us is that remaining was the lesser of two evils.

Leave camp instead promoted at least SOME hope. Something positive. They promoted democracy. They promoted giving the British people control of their destiny, and as idealistic as you might think it to be, it was a hell of a lot more realistic to me than remaining in a corrupt, rotting, sinking political union that we had no say in joining.

But when it came down to it I did not vote on immigration, the economy, or because I particularly like Nigel Farage or hate David Cameron. I voted because I believe in democracy. In my (dare I say it, reasonably informed) opinion the EU is wholly undemocratic. It is not something I ever signed up for and given the choice I have gladly voted to leave.

As for the whole debate around 'should people have gotten to vote at all'. Yes. They absolutely should. I agree this referendum was not called because of some idealistic vision of democratic justice. It was called because David Cameron made a gamble. But the reality is people went out and voted on an issue that they'd never been consulted on before. The EU is not what it was when people voted in the 70's.

I did not buy the doomsayer stories and I still don't. The "experts". These very people had pushed the pound to its strongest ever just moments before the first votes came in. It was predicted in the economic world at this point just before the first results, that the remain camp had won. Nigel Farage himself admitted defeat before a single vote had came in! If you want to know my reason for not trusting at all what these supposed experts were saying, who had got it wrong countless times before, you need only look at how they got this result so horrendously wrong just moments before Sunderland announced its vote count.

Yeah. I'm chuffed. Call me a xenophobe, insinuate I'm a racist, call me a moron for not paying attention to the experts, tell me I don't know what's good for the country.

Quite frankly, I think this referendum has shown us that the British people are fed up with being patronisingly told what to do. And whatever happens, we'll be alright. This country has survived a lot worse than voting for its independence from a European super state, it'll still be here in 10 years time and I honestly believe we'll be better off.

*just edited some wording, namely saying we'd already left when I meant voted to!

Re democracy, the UK, with its metric fuckton of rotten burroughs, no constituional guarantees, one sided press and emasculated watchdogs, is no better really than the EU. A party can gain a majority on 30 to 35% of the votes cast in a UK election.

You think the referendum was undemocratic?

(June 24, 2016 at 10:01 pm)Emjay Wrote: I was just reading that there's been a surge in Google searches about Irish citizenship and passports following the referendum result, and the Irish Foreign Ministry has responded by publishing a guide on their website HERE. And according to that, since one of my parents was born in Ireland, that makes me automatically an Irish Citizen, despite being born in the UK, and therefore entitled to apply for an Irish Passport. I didn't know anything about that till now so it looks like there's a light at the end of this tunnel after all  

Top of the morning to you, boy. What say after a breakfast of guinness and potatoes, we go hunt some leprechauns and then take in a hurling match?

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote:

(June 25, 2016 at 5:57 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Gosh, even I've heard of UKIP, and I'm just an ignorant American!

Nigel Farage is a racist opportunist, with any luck he will now disappear into the ether, I strongly doubt it though. 


I wanted out of Europe and I'm not a racist bigot, doesn't seem like anybody here is even willing to try to understand that though.

Amazing to watch people's perception of the whole vote here, anybody who dared want out of Europe is being painted as some kind of racist, bigotted, uneducated moron.

Pretty sure I didn't call you a racist, bud. But I can see from the coverage that there were subtle code-word appeals to xenophobia and bigotry in the Leave campaign, words which were supped up by many. You probably have your own non-soundbite reasons; you've always struck me as a thoughtful guy. But the fact is, many others seem, from this American remove, to have lapped sour milk and enjoyed it.

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: The divide over here now is almost as poisonous as the republican/democrat split in the US>

If it's that bad, you have my sympathies, and I'm not being snarky. Politically, we here in America cannot really talk across the gulf, and you can see what it's doing to us.

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: I wanted out of Europe and I'm not a racist bigot, doesn't seem like anybody here is even willing to try to understand that though.

I didn't call you anything, since that is the first time I even reply to you in this thread. And if you look back at my posts, you will find that I always said, it's a lot of different kinds of people with different motivations, making up the leave crowd. But what they mostly have in common is to be instrumentalised by snake oil vendors following their own agenda. And that agenda uses racism as part of their narrative, in order to present some seemingly easy solutions for complicated problems.

(June 27, 2016 at 5:29 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: Nigel Farage is a racist opportunist, with any luck he will now disappear into the ether, I strongly doubt it though. 


I wanted out of Europe and I'm not a racist bigot, doesn't seem like anybody here is even willing to try to understand that though.

Amazing to watch people's perception of the whole vote here, anybody who dared want out of Europe is being painted as some kind of racist, bigotted, uneducated moron.

Pretty sure I didn't call you a racist, bud. But I can see from the coverage that there were subtle code-word appeals to xenophobia and bigotry in the Leave campaign, words which were supped up by many. You probably have your own non-soundbite reasons; you've always struck me as a thoughtful guy. But the fact is, many others seem, from this American remove, to have lapped sour milk and enjoyed it.

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: The divide over here now is almost as poisonous as the republican/democrat split in the US>

If it's that bad, you have my sympathies, and I'm not being snarky. Politically, we here in America cannot really talk across the gulf, and you can see what it's doing to us.

It is that bad mate, what we have now is political chaos, with anybody who voted out being painted as an uneducated bigot.  Just read through the threads here to see the general opinion.

My reasons for voting out had nothing to do with immigration.  I'm generally a liberal minded guy who has never voted conservative in his life.

The fact that i have to keep repeating this to anyone I converse with on this is the most saddening thing.

(June 27, 2016 at 5:34 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 4:48 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: I wanted out of Europe and I'm not a racist bigot, doesn't seem like anybody here is even willing to try to understand that though.

I didn't call you anything, since that is the first time I even reply to you in this thread. And if you look back at my posts, you will find that I always said, it's a lot of different kinds of people with different motivations, making up the leave crowd. But what they mostly have in common is to be instrumentalised by snake oil vendors following their own agenda. And that agenda uses racism as part of their narrative, in order to present some seemingly easy solutions for complicated problems.

I don't think I replied to you, but if you think that 30 years of mistrust in the EU can be simply put down to political opportunists such as Farage, you're sadly mistaken.

The Maastrich treaty, coupled with the Euro and our failure to join meant that this vote was almost inevitable.

(June 25, 2016 at 4:08 am)Ayen Wrote: I was surprised the Leave campaign won, and I suppose like the EU, underestimated the amount of people who wanted to split. Though to be fair the polls were pretty cut down the middle with only a small percentage tipped in the Leave campaign's favor, and now it seem many of them are learning they voted under false pretenses as the Leave campaign lies start to be revealed.

I'm worried for what this means with my girlfriend and friends overseas. Especially with talks of Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving the UK to rejoin the EU and tear the UK even further apart while more countries with the EU wanting to call their own referendum. This sets a bad and dangerous precedent for government bodies similar to the EU.

With the division of my own country being as big as it ever was I'm heart broken to see the same thing happening to Europe.

I wouldn't be suprised if 20% of the no vote wasn't an actual Brexit vote but a protest vote against either the Tory government or Cameron, judging that even if no came in, they wouldn't push the nuclear button. While the EU is generally not that popular in the UK outside the Kipper BNP wing of politics it is also largely the least important issue among voters. The vote is too tight to say that anything other than the "fuck you, Dave" vote won it.

(June 27, 2016 at 5:47 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: The Maastrich treaty, coupled with the Euro and our failure to join meant that this vote was almost inevitable.

I would rather put it down to you own politician's inability to communicate with their people and populists taking advantage of an already skeptical climate.

What you just mentioned is a failure of the UKs own politics. As far as we are concerned, the british always made home with the very best deal possible, compared to all the other members. They always got the cherry on top, whenever Blair or Cameron showed up at the table.