(July 6, 2016 at 8:35 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:28 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It's because you're not praying hard enough. Don't worry that will stop once you pray hard enough.

And remember, if your back doesn't stop hurting even after praying super hard for ages, it's because you're still not praying hard enough. O.K.?

Good. Then we agree.

Haha, nice try, but I'm not that simple, nor is my belief. I don't expect to get a response when praying, or even for God to intervene in my life and change something, earlier joke aside. I pray because it makes me feel good to think that there's someone out there listening to my private thoughts and that he cares. Especially in this age, some people need that, you know? Don't hate me for it...

So you aren't interested in whether your beliefs comport with reality? IE you are willing to lie to yourself because it makes you feel good?

(July 6, 2016 at 8:38 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:35 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Haha, nice try, but I'm not that simple, nor is my belief. I don't expect to get a response when praying, or even for God to intervene in my life and change something, earlier joke aside. I pray because it makes me feel good to think that there's someone out there listening to my private thoughts and that he cares. Especially in this age, some people need that, you know? Don't hate me for it...

So you aren't interested in whether your beliefs comport with reality? IE you are willing to lie to yourself because it makes you feel good?

What are you talking about? How exactly do my beliefs have a negative impact on my life?


I know reality. I experience it and learn about its intricacies. It's part of being human. It's wonderful. But it's not really a belief in the sense that my religious belief is. God has nothing to do with reality, at least not in the sense that you seem to think I think it does.

(July 5, 2016 at 9:44 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 9:12 pm)SteveII Wrote: In addition, what has changed til today? People still believe all kinds of things and will follow anyone who offers hope or a better ____.

You initially claimed that your belief in the NT miracles was different from that of other miracle stories.  You seem to be treading water here.  How are you different in your belief in the miracles of Jesus than other believers in the incredible?

1) Content of the NT is internally consistent within itself and with the OT. 
2) More historical support for more actual documents written by more than one person
3) Historical support of first century church
4) Person of Jesus is a compelling figure
5) Observations of personal effect of Jesus in the lives of other people
6) Personal experience.

(July 5, 2016 at 1:59 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 1:38 pm)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: Ok... What makes you think any of that actually happened?

I choose to believe that the authors of the NT were truthful in what they wrote and that the core content was not changed at a later date--both evidenced by the existence of a growing church as little as 15-20 years after Jesus' death. I would expect to see minor contradictions and minor transcribing errors. I believe the life and death of Jesus is one of the most attested to events in ancient history. 

I also believe the denial of the above consists mainly of a belief that miracles do not happen. This is a circular argument because you are asking for evidence that God exists and then say, well, you can't use miracles because...God does not exist.

Jim Jones' cult was a "growing church" until he liquidated it all. Mormonism is a "growing church". How come you believe neither are right, especially seeing as they fit the criteria you give in your post for a justified belief?

(July 5, 2016 at 11:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 9:43 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Well I certainly wouldn't; not without corroboration.

Would you?

Um, yes.  He would.  He's already admitted that.

He believes what he is told.

So long as the people doing the telling are his parents, and provided that what they tell him is corroborated by the nice man who talks to all their friends every Sunday.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:13 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:11 am)ignoramus Wrote: Wow! The troll has jumped the fence!

So a person isn't allowed to change his mind without being called a troll, is that it? You're only allowed to be an atheist? It's impossible to change your mind about that?

Don't mind Iggy.  He's just being an ignoramus for some reason.  I think your cross is very becoming.  Don't let us hold you back.  If you feel a true calling then maybe you're meant for better things?  So are you going to be a proselytizer or just leave our sorry asses down here to fry?  You might try to give poor Steve a hand.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:07 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 7:15 am)SteveII Wrote: So, really you are saying miracles cannot happen. I thought that was your main objection to the NT. Therefore I was right, you claim God does not exist because there is no evidence, miracles would be the most obvious evidence, miracles don't count because they cannot happen, your are arguing in circles. The rest of your list is simply cover because its really not plausible that that many people were mistaken or lying.

No, miracles don't count because only an idiot would believe in magic on here say.

Hearsay (note the spelling) is a pejorative term that describes EVERY historical document. You are attempting to make an exception to the normal standards of assessing historical documents because the content includes miracles.  Your argument is circular. 

As long as you realize you are on shaky philosophical ground, believe whatever you want. Just don't lecture me and other Christians how superior your 'thinking' is.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:43 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 9:44 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: How are you different in your belief in the miracles of Jesus than other believers in the incredible?

1) Content of the NT is internally consistent within itself and with the OT. 
2) More historical support for more actual documents written by more than one person
3) Historical support of first century church
4) Person of Jesus is a compelling figure
5) Observations of personal effect of Jesus in the lives of other people
6) Personal experience.

1) So long as you approach it as the infallible word of God whose word will escape you until you find the correct interpretation.
2) Well sure, people who share your bias have been corroborating what you all believe for years.
3) Ditto.
4) Agreed. But I found Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment to be even more so.
5) Not sure you can reasonably claim the confirmation bias of others as support for your own.
6) That can as easily be explained by your clever brain producing that which you expect to find. C.B. goes deep.

(July 6, 2016 at 9:23 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:07 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: No, miracles don't count because only an idiot would believe in magic on here say.

Hearsay (note the spelling) is a pejorative term that describes EVERY historical document. You are attempting to make an exception to the normal standards of assessing historical documents because the content includes miracles.  Your argument is circular. 

As long as you realize you are on shaky philosophical ground, believe whatever you want. Just don't lecture me and other Christians how superior your 'thinking' is.

Personally I'm impressed you knew the correct spelling of hearsay.  Based on that I feel that you must also be correct about the god thing.  Thanks.  See you heaven.

(July 6, 2016 at 9:12 am)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:13 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: So a person isn't allowed to change his mind without being called a troll, is that it? You're only allowed to be an atheist? It's impossible to change your mind about that?

Don't mind Iggy.  He's just being an ignoramus for some reason.  I think your cross is very becoming.  Don't let us hold you back.  If you feel a true calling then maybe you're meant for better things?  So are you going to be a proselytizer or just leave our sorry asses down here to fry?  You might try to give poor Steve a hand.

I'm definitely not a proselytizer. In fact, I think my religion is stupid and God is probably not real. I know all that, and yet it's an emotional experience that I can't say no to. It makes me feel better to let go of reason in this one area and believe in miracles.