Ha, fair enough. I think it's interesting when someone calls themselves a Christian, yet doesn't believe in something so basic to the belief as heaven.

At the same time, well done.

But may I ask a personal question - you call yourself a Christian, so how do you actually define a Christian?

May I ask what the point of Christianity is if there is no afterlife then fr0d0? If Jesus didn't come down to forgive our sins so that we must believe in him to get to "Heaven" then what is the point of Jesus? If we're never going to meet our creator, then what is the whole point of living in such a way?

(April 4, 2009 at 5:25 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Ha, fair enough. I think it's interesting when someone calls themselves a Christian, yet doesn't believe in something so basic to the belief as heaven.

At the same time, well done.

But may I ask a personal question - you call yourself a Christian, so how do you actually define a Christian?

Someone who follows Christ. I know the heaven thing is contrary to popular belief, but my understanding is also quite widespread, and more accurate I'd counter.

(April 4, 2009 at 10:54 am)Tiberius Wrote: May I ask what the point of Christianity is if there is no afterlife then fr0d0? If Jesus didn't come down to forgive our sins so that we must believe in him to get to "Heaven" then what is the point of Jesus? If we're never going to meet our creator, then what is the whole point of living in such a way?

Jesus said "I come to give you life in all it's fullness". How is "life in all it's fullness" something that isn't to do with life at all, but death? You meet your creator every moment. It's right here, right now. The benefits of being 'morally correct' are immediate. You show kindness where someone hurts you/ love instead of hate/ be charitable/ care for people not as fortunate as yourself... etc etc etc.. your own life is immediately enriched/ made alive rather than fueling your own personal hell/ death as a result of negativity/ hate/ selfishness... etc etc.. This is the entire point, and why I believe what I do. If Christianity was just about a future reward I'd quit this moment.

This is where the religious and the faithful split. The religious are acting out with the view to some eternal punishment/ reward. They live under rules. Aiming to be like Christ is inspirational. Rule breaking. Rules can't contain Christ likeness. Christlikeness smashes religion like glass.

Blimey, that was a bit preachy.. sorry - got me goin then LOL. Hope you can see I'm just trying to explain this to you, and not prosteletize.. that isn't in my nature. I hate that.

I know, I wanted you to start preaching, at least then I can understand what you actually believe.

However, the heaven thing does seem a bit odd. I've heard Christians talk about heaven beginning right here right now, but they still believe that it will continue after death. So if death is the last thing to you, do you believe in the immortality of the soul? Or do you think the soul dies when your body dies, since there is no heaven to accommodate it?

(April 4, 2009 at 5:15 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Heaven is right here right now. (repeating myself I know, but you seem to have forgotten already). An afterlife is superstitious woo, like I said above. It doesn't comfort me one little bit. I don't believe in it. You can believe that nonsense if you want. I'll stick to mine thanks.

And as I said to you before that makes your beliefs not mainstream Christian.

Kyu

(April 5, 2009 at 2:33 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: I know, I wanted you to start preaching, at least then I can understand what you actually believe.

However, the heaven thing does seem a bit odd. I've heard Christians talk about heaven beginning right here right now, but they still believe that it will continue after death. So if death is the last thing to you, do you believe in the immortality of the soul? Or do you think the soul dies when your body dies, since there is no heaven to accommodate it?

I didn't say there was no Heaven, just that it was this life, not after life.

I accept the concept of the soul. I don't understand the implications of it being immortal. It's part of God so has the attributes of God I suppose.

I'm prepared to accept that I'm not correct on the complete definition of Heaven. What I do know though is that it's insignificant to the point of non existent in the motivation of Christians.

(April 5, 2009 at 4:10 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And as I said to you before that makes your beliefs not mainstream Christian.

Like I think I replied before, I've heard it preached by the leaders of church leaders, to very large multi denominational groups. I have never heard recently anyone suggest that the afterlife as the prime motivation for Christians. It's always a supplemental, take it or leave it bolt on that's just 'nice'. Nothing more.

(April 5, 2009 at 5:43 am)fr0d0 Wrote: I didn't say there was no Heaven, just that it was this life, not after life.

I accept the concept of the soul. I don't understand the implications of it being immortal. It's part of God so has the attributes of God I suppose.

I'm prepared to accept that I'm not correct on the complete definition of Heaven. What I do know though is that it's insignificant to the point of non existent in the motivation of Christians.

Ok, so heaven is here on earth.

As for the concept of the soul, if it is immortal than what happens to it after death? And when you say that it's part of god, are you saying that when you die, you'll soul will return to be united with god? That rings a bell with Mormonism I think.

Your definition of heaven I've heard before, however I think it's too simple. Jesus came to die and rise again so that we may live life to the full, by accepting his forgiveness and so on. What of the people who never choose to believe? What punishment is there (if any) for their unforgiven sins?

(April 5, 2009 at 5:48 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Ok, so heaven is here on earth.

As for the concept of the soul, if it is immortal than what happens to it after death? And when you say that it's part of god, are you saying that when you die, you'll soul will return to be united with god? That rings a bell with Mormonism I think.

Does it? Oops!

Yeah I stayed away from that exact phrase. I don't think it's be correct, although I don't know how.

I don't think the journey of the soul has much relevance. The relevance is that it helps define what it is.

(April 5, 2009 at 6:28 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: Your definition of heaven I've heard before, however I think it's too simple. Jesus came to die and rise again so that we may live life to the full, by accepting his forgiveness and so on. What of the people who never choose to believe? What punishment is there (if any) for their unforgiven sins?

Punishment for doing bad stuff is the opposite of life in it's fullness. Think of following Christ's example as full on life, warts and all. Doing the opposite prevents you enjoying the moment. It's counter productive, negative, paralyzing.

Nothing happen when people die. They just plainly die, perhaps a bit depressing and boring. But there are no life after death, it's simple as that. If you don't have a living brain you don't have any conscious.

(April 5, 2009 at 7:10 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Punishment for doing bad stuff is the opposite of life in it's fullness. Think of following Christ's example as full on life, warts and all. Doing the opposite prevents you enjoying the moment. It's counter productive, negative, paralyzing.

But surely you've noticed that life tends to be unfair, that is, bad things happen to good people. Christians can be very oppressed and have been killed for their beliefs. There have been poor christians, rich christians, black christians, white christians, boring christians, exciting christians, and so on. So what would you define as a "full on life"?

Obviously there would be the high moral standard, and the giving glory to god, but if you could describe a full on life, what would it be? Or is it simply a way of describing a Christian?