As much as I want to be involved in this thread, cos it's right up my street, unfortunately I'm playing a mafia game at the moment and it tends to take up all my time and energy, so maybe talk to you guys again in a few days when it's over 

#damnblokeyinabilitytomultitask

(July 6, 2016 at 5:56 am)Gemini Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 1:29 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: My personal view of meditation is that it differs from simple mindfulness.  Mindfulness in ordinary activities does little to restructure the way our brains process information.  In ordinary consciousness, the different centers of thought in our brain compete for overall attention, firing off largely unrestricted.  My view is that in intense meditation, the brain is learning to focus activity in a few select portions of the brain.  It is a form of training our mind how to do that.  Once the skill is acquired through intense meditation, it can be harnessed in less rigorous circumstances.  Mindfulness to me is like meditation lite -- it can alter the way the brain processes things for that short time period, but does little to retrain the mind overall. (in my opinion)  So in my view there is a reason for the rigors of practice which are not met by simply trying to live mindfully.

The way I think of it is that what we call "consciousness" is a specific kind of complex experience: consciousness of consciousness. The neural correlate would presumably be the pre-frontal lobes, monitoring various other areas of the brain. 

My experience of meditation is that when I get out of the well-worn connections that I spend most of my time in, I can see that there's a great deal going on in my mind that goes unnoticed by this meta-consciousness or self-consciousness. I'm experiencing it, but the nature of the experience is too simple to form thoughts like, "I'm experiencing such and such." It's like you said--different centers of thought in the brain competing for overall attention, without any kind of logical or rational oversight. It's a messy, winner-take-all process. 

I'm guessing meditation is a way of forming new connections between the pre-frontal lobes and other areas of the brain, allowing you to be more selective in your decision making processes.

And then there's a whole other aspect to meditation, where you get really fine-grained and analyze things like how the mind constructs our experience of space. Once you see how some of our most basic and seemingly nonanalyzable concepts and intuitions are metal constructs that break down into smaller components, I don't think you can help but be skeptical of metaphysics that rests on a priori reason.

I think you're really onto something there and it just got me thinking - apologies if this is just in effect rephrasing what you've already said, which I think it might be - what if there isn't that much of a difference between what we'd usually term subconscious and conscious? Maybe it's all 'available' to consciousness in theory but in practice the subconscious level stuff is essentially buried under much more prominent conscious level stuff... that the conscious level stuff is what rises to the top in this 'messy, winner-take-all process'. So where meditation both improves concentration and the ability to notice subtle differences in things... as where mindfulness is about noticing things you never usually pay any attention to, it could metaphorically pick through the canopy to the little plants on the forest floor... i.e. notice what is usually subconscious. Because I'm sure I've read somewhere that accomplished meditators can gain control of usually subconscious processes like the heart rate and I was also thinking about the fact that my sister was ill recently with an iron deficiency and in the weeks prior to going to the doctor she made several drastic changes to her diet for no particular reason other than a gut feel - cutting out caffeine and then even decaf tea, and then once she had been to the doctor the recommendations were exactly the same as what she had done - that caffeine inhibits iron absorption and also that the tannin in tea does the same even if it's decaffeinated. I think that was an example of subconscious intuition based on the chemical needs of her body. So I was just thinking that those sorts of subtle chemical needs don't usually make it to consciousness in anything other than a vague, indirect way... such as craving bananas if you need potassium etc... but perhaps if anything is serious enough it will find a way to reach the canopy of consciousness, so that it is a candidate for focus selection by what you suggest is the pre-frontal lobe. In other words perhaps all is equal theoretically for attention and therefore that our usual distinction between conscious and subconscious is only incidental rather than a strict separation between two different types of processes.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Emjay Wrote: I think you're really onto something there and it just got me thinking - apologies if this is just in effect rephrasing what you've already said, which I think it might be - what if there isn't that much of a difference between what we'd usually term subconscious and conscious? Maybe it's all 'available' to consciousness in theory but in practice the subconscious level stuff is essentially buried under much more prominent conscious level stuff... that the conscious level stuff is what rises to the top in this 'messy, winner-take-all process'. So where meditation both improves concentration and the ability to notice subtle differences in things... as where mindfulness is about noticing things you never usually pay any attention to, it could metaphorically pick through the canopy to the little plants on the forest floor... i.e. notice what is usually subconscious. Because I'm sure I've read somewhere that accomplished meditators can gain control of usually subconscious processes like the heart rate and I was also thinking about the fact that my sister was ill recently with an iron deficiency and in the weeks prior to going to the doctor she made several drastic changes to her diet for no particular reason other than a gut feel - cutting out caffeine and then even decaf tea, and then once she had been to the doctor the recommendations were exactly the same as what she had done - that caffeine inhibits iron absorption and also that the tannin in tea does the same even if it's decaffeinated. I think that was an example of subconscious intuition based on the chemical needs of her body. So I was just thinking that those sorts of subtle chemical needs don't usually make it to consciousness in anything other than a vague, indirect way... such as craving bananas if you need potassium etc... but perhaps if anything is serious enough it will find a way to reach the canopy of consciousness, so that it is a candidate for focus selection by what you suggest is the pre-frontal lobe. In other words perhaps all is equal theoretically for attention and therefore that our usual distinction between conscious and subconscious is only incidental rather than a strict separation between two different types of processes.

Sartre observed that consciousness has two parts -- intentionality, or consciousness 'about' things, and consciousness that we are conscious. Subconscious things seem to lack this second component in that we are not really aware of the subconscious mind which we have no immediate perception of.

(July 6, 2016 at 8:17 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Emjay Wrote: I think you're really onto something there and it just got me thinking - apologies if this is just in effect rephrasing what you've already said, which I think it might be - what if there isn't that much of a difference between what we'd usually term subconscious and conscious? Maybe it's all 'available' to consciousness in theory but in practice the subconscious level stuff is essentially buried under much more prominent conscious level stuff... that the conscious level stuff is what rises to the top in this 'messy, winner-take-all process'. So where meditation both improves concentration and the ability to notice subtle differences in things... as where mindfulness is about noticing things you never usually pay any attention to, it could metaphorically pick through the canopy to the little plants on the forest floor... i.e. notice what is usually subconscious. Because I'm sure I've read somewhere that accomplished meditators can gain control of usually subconscious processes like the heart rate and I was also thinking about the fact that my sister was ill recently with an iron deficiency and in the weeks prior to going to the doctor she made several drastic changes to her diet for no particular reason other than a gut feel - cutting out caffeine and then even decaf tea, and then once she had been to the doctor the recommendations were exactly the same as what she had done - that caffeine inhibits iron absorption and also that the tannin in tea does the same even if it's decaffeinated. I think that was an example of subconscious intuition based on the chemical needs of her body. So I was just thinking that those sorts of subtle chemical needs don't usually make it to consciousness in anything other than a vague, indirect way... such as craving bananas if you need potassium etc... but perhaps if anything is serious enough it will find a way to reach the canopy of consciousness, so that it is a candidate for focus selection by what you suggest is the pre-frontal lobe. In other words perhaps all is equal theoretically for attention and therefore that our usual distinction between conscious and subconscious is only incidental rather than a strict separation between two different types of processes.

Sartre observed that consciousness has two parts -- intentionality, or consciousness 'about' things, and consciousness that we are conscious.  Subconscious things seem to lack this second component in that we are not really aware of the subconscious mind which we have no immediate perception of.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand... I'm not very good with philosophical terms. Intentionality - consciousness about things - is what, everything you can notice... thoughts, sensations etc? Compared to consciousness that we are conscious... is that 'meta-consciousness'... as in being aware of the presence of a self and say the visual field as opposed to what's seen in it?

Not being aware of the subconscious mind is sort of the definition of subconscious.

(July 7, 2016 at 2:02 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Not being aware of the subconscious mind is sort of the definition of subconscious.

Or rather not being fully aware of the particulars... which affect our actions/choices.

I'm unsure of the difference between "unconscious" and "not fully aware".

(July 6, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Emjay Wrote: I think you're really onto something there and it just got me thinking - apologies if this is just in effect rephrasing what you've already said, which I think it might be - what if there isn't that much of a difference between what we'd usually term subconscious and conscious? Maybe it's all 'available' to consciousness in theory but in practice the subconscious level stuff is essentially buried under much more prominent conscious level stuff... that the conscious level stuff is what rises to the top in this 'messy, winner-take-all process'. So where meditation both improves concentration and the ability to notice subtle differences in things... as where mindfulness is about noticing things you never usually pay any attention to, it could metaphorically pick through the canopy to the little plants on the forest floor... i.e. notice what is usually subconscious. Because I'm sure I've read somewhere that accomplished meditators can gain control of usually subconscious processes like the heart rate and I was also thinking about the fact that my sister was ill recently with an iron deficiency and in the weeks prior to going to the doctor she made several drastic changes to her diet for no particular reason other than a gut feel - cutting out caffeine and then even decaf tea, and then once she had been to the doctor the recommendations were exactly the same as what she had done - that caffeine inhibits iron absorption and also that the tannin in tea does the same even if it's decaffeinated. I think that was an example of subconscious intuition based on the chemical needs of her body. So I was just thinking that those sorts of subtle chemical needs don't usually make it to consciousness in anything other than a vague, indirect way... such as craving bananas if you need potassium etc... but perhaps if anything is serious enough it will find a way to reach the canopy of consciousness, so that it is a candidate for focus selection by what you suggest is the pre-frontal lobe. In other words perhaps all is equal theoretically for attention and therefore that our usual distinction between conscious and subconscious is only incidental rather than a strict separation between two different types of processes.

I think there's still going to be a true "subconscious" which doesn't involve experience at all and is off limits even to experienced meditators. For instance, an experiment with a monk who'd been meditating for 40+ years showed that he was able to significantly diminish the startle response, but not completely eliminate it. 

The view I described is probably best categorized as a cognitive/representational account of consciousness in which first-order mental states constitute a kind of simple consciousness. "Higher order" functions like the prefrontal lobe executive functions don't contribute the experiential character of consciousness to mental states, only the ability to perform complex cognitive operations like forming the thought "I am experiencing this."

This gives you a theory of consciousness in which consciousness is evolutionarily early, beginning with the first cephalized organisms, and which entails that pretty much any animal with a brain is conscious. The difference between animal and human consciousness is an additional layer in the multiply-embedded framework of consciousness. 

The fact that first-order mental states aren't always perceived by the executive functions would explain experiments in which subjects don't report neural activity outside of higher brain areas like the prefrontal cortex (Christof Koch's The Quest for Consciousness describes some of these experiments).

(July 6, 2016 at 1:45 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 6, 2016 at 11:09 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: Hear that suckas?  It is my moment.  You can stay but there will be a charge.

Settle down, Gramps, I said you're in the moment, not you own the moment.

On a related note, might be time to check the batteries in your hearing aid.  

That wasn't nice! You made him laugh and now his teeth are somewhere in the garden.

Lmao. Much love, Whoeverist.