(July 8, 2016 at 3:52 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Predeterminism makes no room for free will.

Causality determines everything from prior causes. The prefix "pre" means beforehand. Causality determines everything beforehand.

Everything is predetermined by causality.

Causality leaves no room for free will then right?

(July 8, 2016 at 3:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Causality determines everything from prior causes. The prefix "pre" means beforehand. Causality determines everything beforehand.

Everything is predetermined by causality.

Causality leaves no room for free will then right?

Only if one is silly enough to believe in a being in charge of that which you have spoken.

No. Causality determines what happens without any supernatural being being necessary.................................................

Causality is still not predetermistic, correct?

It is still random.

Meaning, that free will is still a factor.

Causality is not random. Causality is deterministic.

If indeterminism is true causality is an illusion. If indeterminism is true it's all down to probability. If determinism is true it's a clockwork universe.

Look, determinism is either true or it isn't. One is causality the other is randomess/probability/correlation that seems like causality.

Whether the laws of the universe are more random or more mechanical, neither randomness or mechanicalness can give us free will.

(July 8, 2016 at 4:09 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Causality is not random. Causality is deterministic.

Again, the difference between the religious definition and the secular definition.

Causality according to the religious definition means that everything has a cause.

Causality according to the secular definition merely means a relationship between cause and effect.

Religion is not necessary to believe everything has a cause.

I believe everything has a cause, and I certainly don't think God is involved.

Of course there's a relationship between cause and effect, that's what causality is lol.

Everything having a cause is the most consistent. God being part of it is just religious people being illogical.

Then you should understand that free will is the free choice we each have to decide.

Indeterminism doesn't give you free will and determinism doesn't either....

If you say "some things have a cause and some things don't" then the things that have a cause are deterministic, and the things that don't are indeterministic, and still both categories of things don't have free will because determinism and indeterminism still both don't give you free will.

It's more consistent to think either everything has a cause or the universe is deterministic. If you wanna say some things are deterministic/have a cause and some things are merely correlated/indeterministic, fine, doesn't change anything.