IFL certainly lacked perspective. I'm sure that in his world, for him and those he considers equals, he believed he made perfect sense.

Must be a pretty small world.

Did I just describe a delusion of perspective?

Otherwise known as "Texas".  





Sweet, sweet release. 

Wow. This thread. I don't even...

I mean, I love it when some new person comes around and tells everyone what they believe, why they believe it, and how shitty they and their beliefs are. It's awesome.

Sorry if I'm a shitty hippie liberal because I think it's a good thing to give people things they need if they can't provide for themselves. That makes me horrible, I guess. I absolutely agree teaching the proverbial man to fish is a good thing, but when said man has no arms, fishing is probably kind of tough for him.

Why would it even be strange, that many atheists are leftist, especially in USA. Conservatives wipe their d*cks with the bible all the time, because that's the best tool at their disposal, for brainwashing the poor and the uneducated into voting against their own interest. As long as conservatives (be it Republicans, or any similar factions in Europe) need to pander to stupid people, promote social inequality ad impede progress - I know I'd want nothing to do with the c*nts, even if I did agree with their fiscal policies.

I think the idea that liberalism and conservatism are mutually exclusive leads to a lot of unnecessary fuckery. Health care, family support etc. require a prospering economy. And a prospering economy requires people who are healthy and educated.

The problem is that fuckwits try to separate the two, as though they are mortal enemies: Fuck business, we're just gonna give away everything that everyone wants. Fuck people, we're just going to give all the breaks to the rich.

In my experience here on these forums, I've found that each individual is a blend of conservative and liberal values. My recent experience showed me how unforgivingly hardcore conservative and uptight some people here are in some areas of life, at least from my very liberal perspective. But these are people I know to be generally open-minded, accepting, and tolerant. Most people are like that, I think: open about most things, but hung op on some things.

I think the correlation isn't so much about background as about age and station. Young people these days tend to be in university, tend to feel separated from the economic powers that be, and therefore tend to align Democrat. They have little chance to have any political or financial influence, so they do sit-ins and eat granola. And they also tend to be atheist, because so many of their peers come from different religious or orientations, and they can't abide by a belief system that will demean their friends.

I think.

Without conservative values, there is no engine for liberal programs...without liberal programs there is no need for conservative values. They owe their very existence to each other...but for whatever reason..people who identify strongly with one or the other seem to be chiefly engaged at tearing out each others throats over imaginary sleights.

(July 22, 2016 at 9:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Without conservative values, there is no engine for liberal programs...without liberal programs there is no need for conservative values.  They owe their very existence to each other...but for whatever reason..people who identify strongly with one or the other seem to be chiefly engaged at tearing out each others throats over imaginary sleights.

Yeah, I think things in the US have gone from different ideas about governing to enemy gangs, much like the Roman blues and greens or the Crips and Bloods.  It doesn't matter who says what, you must declare and maintain a lifelong, unquestioning loyalty to your colors, or face exile by angry family or peers. That's why, IMO, so many Democrats voted for Hillary, though she's clearly quite conservative, or is at least much LESS progressive than Sanders-- she's on Team Democrat, she's the current team captain, and that's just that-- there's really nothing more to be considered.

Now, I don't know this for sure, but let me speculate-- I'll bet if you polled Clinton supporters, you'd find an awful lot of Christians; I'll bet Sanders had the atheist democrats pretty much on lockdown.

I remember a long time ago, always being confused why Liberals were pro abortion and conservatives were against abortion.  It struck me that the party that supports seizing your land because of an endangered spotted inch worm would be the one to value all organisms, while the one that wanted to step on them so they can build a parking lot would crush any that were inconvenient.  There were a few issues like that that always struck me as counter intuitive.

But this election, I think, really highlights whats going on.  

I'm a New York Yankees fan since the early '80's.  And two things I hated were Wade Boggs and Roger Clemens.  Until they became Yankees.  Then I loved them, and Red Sox fans hated them.  

The political parties are the sports teams.  The policies are the players.  The voters are the fan bases.  And as long as the player/policy is on my team/party, I support the player/policy.

That's why the Trumps are getting cheers for Equal pay for Women, the LGBTQ population, isolationism, and no more free trade.  Meanwhile, Hillary/Obama are pro-nation building, blowing up civilians with drones,  and cow towing to corporations, and many democrats are fine with it.

----

I'll preface this with I'm historically Republican, although I'm all over the map since becoming atheist.  I'm going to vote for Trump, I would have voted for Bernie.  I'd never vote for Hillary or Cruz.  

Why Atheist/Liberal associations?  I think at the root is sociology.  Social media/culture pushes white people under 40 very hard in one direction.  There's lots of positive feedback for being Atheist, A lover of Science, and Progressive.  They get patted on the back, while belittling the opposition.  It started in the late 80's, early 90's?  MTV combined music videos and the progressive movement targeting a generation of young white Americans.  And that crowd now runs the internet for the most part.  By staking out anti-religion, pro-science, and progressive you become 'one of the good ones' in the internet community. And then the group think/mob mentality takes over, the brains shut off, and that's that.  If you're dumb as fuck, don't understand science, religion, or reasons for being progressive, that's not an issue.  As long as you share the ole I Fucking Love Science posts, and rave about Neil Degrasse Tyson, you're better than the other people.

Not that there's anything wrong with being Athiest/Pro-science/Progressive, just that I think that's the position people are being herded towards.   And a large portion of the population is just going to be herded wherever it is people like them are being herded.

(July 22, 2016 at 5:37 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote: these US blacks have everything at their fingertips- loads of scholarships ands grants for black folks, but instead many of them just draw welfare or unemployment and sit on their butts, or sell drugs, and complain that they have been slaves! So they want more free stuff.

Unless they were born in Africa and moved to the US, there is no need for hyphens. They are just AMERICANS. Not "African-Americans". Ridiculous. 

I feel you, brother.

Here's the thing with slavery/racism.  Black folks were just getting in the game during the time when upward mobility was accessible.  My dad, without a degree, worked 30 years for IBM in manufacturing.  He earned enough that my mom didn't have to work.  They got a house and I had a nice enough upbringing, and went to a decent enough college.  Paired off with another person with the exact same upbringing, and now our kid is going to have a relatively easy go at things.

When the racism subsided enough that black people had a fair enough shake to hop in on that, it was too late.  That 30 year career at IBM doesn't exist anymore.  The 30 year career working in the factory is gone.  Now you get shit pay if you can find someone who isn't cutting corners with illegal labor.  And they just keep piling on ways to have less workers, and pay those workers less assuming they can't find a way to ship them over seas.  

And the lack of opportunity snowballs.  You got all these people with no path to financial comfort stuck in the same place.  That's not going to be a very nice place.  Then they send all their kids to the same school.  A lot of those kids are going to be pretty shitty.  Having a couple shitty kids in a class makes teaching hard.  Having a class of predominately shitty kids is going to be nearly impossible.

The butterfly effect of slavery has definitely fucked a race of people by causing them to miss the boat that was well paying/low education/manufacturing careers.  

When Trump says America first, this is what I think of.  Stopping outsourcing with the trade deals written by corporate lobbyists looking to drive up their stocks, and stop corporations/shady business from driving down wages through shady legal, and illegal immigration.  People try to paint it as some Aryan white thing.  But when I think America first, I think about giving poor black community at least a chance.  My family got ours when the getting was good.  But now, that opportunity is gone.  I'd like to see it brought back.  I don't know if Trump can do it.  Probably not.  But at least he'll be pushing in the right direction, I think.

Very well put, wallym. I was with you in both of your last 2 posts up until you said you think Trump will be pushing in the right direction.

I still secretly think he might be a darkhorse. He might also be the antichrist, though. . . so there's that.

But I'm 100% sure what Hillary will do: put up a couple token bills to make it look like she cares about women, minorities or poor people, and keep building those ties with big business. Donald I'm no so sure about-- he might declare a state of emergency after a month and try to make everyone call him Caesar. Or he might roll out every Democratic idea since the 1960's and claim that they were Republican ideas all along. I loved how literally within a day after he secured the numerical nomination of his party, he was already back-treading on some of his rhetoric: "Well, you know, I meant we have to LOOK INTO what to do about muslims. . . "