(August 11, 2016 at 12:23 pm)TheRealJoeFish Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 7:43 am)abaris Wrote: Punishments in the US are the most draconic I know of in any western country apart from Singapore. I remember reading a story about a year ago, about a couple having sex on the beach. I didn't follow up what came of it, but back then they were indicted with sexual assault and faced a possible 20 years stretch in prison. In Europe you're sent anway with a slap on your wrist and a 100 Euro fine. Or being branded a sexual offender for taking a piss in the streets. Really?

It's institutional puritanism.  For all the discussion of personal freedom being paramount in America, that means "the freedom to do what I, the community, and god want you to do" rather than the freedom to do what you want to do.

That's kind of been the joke about the religious right for decades now. "We're for Liberty!*"  Though thankfully trends are moving away from that attitude, especially among the younger folks.





*Terms and conditions may apply

(August 11, 2016 at 7:16 am)Losty Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 5:40 am)Nymphadora Wrote: Technically it's none of ANYONES business but the thread was started and it is what it is. That's what I like about it here. The fact that we're all different and have the right to our own opinions is what makes this place great.

Of course we all are that's the whole point to the conversation. Pretending you have more common sense than I do because of your opinion, on the other hand, is wrong (IMO). Your opinion is all fine and dandy until you start saying we should have laws based on it. We shouldn't. It doesn't matter what you think or what I think when it comes to the laws. Laws should be based on facts. The facts are that two consenting adults having sex are not harming anyone even if they're closely related. There's no real reason to have a law like this and if we are going to have the law, jail time as a punishment is extremely over the top.

Excuse me? Where am I even suggesting that I have more common sense than you do? I love how you project and put words into other people's mouths. I never once said we should have laws based on this. I said there ARE laws, which is true. There are already laws on the books in this country. That, ma'am, is a fact. So trying to insinuate that I'm saying something that I'm not, is in very poor taste. Even for you. I also never once said that I agreed with the law. What I said was, and apparently I need to repeat it because some people like to see what they want and not what is actually there, is that they broke the law. And they did. I never said I agreed with the law or the punishment.

Matter of fact, punishing them does no good. Once they get out, they will probably continue their relationship. Being consenting adults, they can do whatever the fuck they want. Laws are only broken if the people breaking them, actually get caught. Do I find incest gross? Yes I do. But, what two people do behind closed doors, not involving me, is, yes, none of my business.

(August 9, 2016 at 11:44 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

(August 9, 2016 at 6:10 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: My view regarding incest is, I don't care about it as long as its between adults and they don't have kids.

'Cause yuk and ew is not an argument. It's a reaction. And we don't run society on those.

You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine. I guess some of us just posses more common sense than others in that regard. There is a reason why we humans are not attracted to our own kin. Are these two consenting adults? Sure. Doesn't make it right though. She's still of child bearing age. Suppose she accidentally gets pregnant? Then what? You are aware that people don't always use protection, right?

But that's not even the point. This woman gave birth to this kid. He came out of her. In who's actual fucking right mind thinks the two of them having sex with each other is normal by any means? It's not. You may not like my opinion, and you may not agree with it, but I'm okay with that. It's not about me or you. It's about the fact that in this country, incest is against the law and they broke the law. And yes, what they did with each other IS gross.

I suppose I misunderstood this post entirely. I didn't put words in your mouth, but I guess I just didn't understand what you were saying.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:04 pm)Losty Wrote:

(August 9, 2016 at 11:44 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine. I guess some of us just posses more common sense than others in that regard. There is a reason why we humans are not attracted to our own kin. Are these two consenting adults? Sure. Doesn't make it right though. She's still of child bearing age. Suppose she accidentally gets pregnant? Then what? You are aware that people don't always use protection, right?

But that's not even the point. This woman gave birth to this kid. He came out of her. In who's actual fucking right mind thinks the two of them having sex with each other is normal by any means? It's not. You may not like my opinion, and you may not agree with it, but I'm okay with that. It's not about me or you. It's about the fact that in this country, incest is against the law and they broke the law. And yes, what they did with each other IS gross.

I suppose I misunderstood this post entirely. I didn't put words in your mouth, but I guess I just didn't understand what you were saying.

It's hard to see tone and inflection in written word unless it's accompanied by tons of emoticons. I wasn't implying that people here don't have common sense. I was trying to say, and I guess I worded it wrong, was that, for the most part, we, as humans, are not attracted to our own family members for a reason. I don't know... my personal feelings on it is that "ya just don't go there", but again, what two consenting people do is none of my business. I'd just feel sorry for any kids that might be born as a result. And any adult in a position of shaping and molding another human being, should really know better.

We talk all the time in the religious forum sections about how Lot slept with his own daughters and the wrongness with it. How is this any different than that? If we take issues with a bible telling a story of incest and we jump all over theists for believing in such a story, then turn around and do a complete about face and say, "well, this mother and son are consenting adults so they can do what they want", doesn't that pretty much put us in a "pot calling the kettle black" situation? We can't be okay with one situation and not okay with the other.

Maybe it would just be better to take a neutral stance on it and let those actually involved in those kinds of relationships, figure it out for themselves. The laws should get thrown out because hell, gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns, so how would any of these incest laws actually prevent incest?

You know, Nymph, I was going to agree with you and tell you I'm sorry your words got so misinterpreted, but then you went ahead and said this:

Quote:The laws should get thrown out because hell, gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns, so how would any of these incest laws actually prevent incest?

It's not unreasonable to think, after you say something like this, that you think incest is actually wrong on an ethical level, and that you'd like to see it punished, if only you could make sure to catch people in the act. You clearly didn't say this, but I can see how someone could think you did(it's clear to me, given your earlier caveats, but not necessarily to anyone else). That's just a bad analogy, and in general, you used more confusing language like that in this thread.

You are disgusted at it. I get it. That's simply a reaction, though. It doesn't mean there's necessarily a good reason for it, still.

I mean sure, she gave birth to him, it's weird, but if they find that sexy or whatever, what do I care? Let them have at it. Just agreeing that they can do whatever they want doesn't mean you're going to go ahead and do it yourself or something.

If they're both happy and this relationship doesn't affect them in any negative way just because of its incestual dimension, that means there's no actual reason to frown upon it - like, at all.


As for using biblical incest as an argument against theists, that is a very different thing. That's just confronting theists with biblical contradictions and generally just mocking them for not seeing them.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:21 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 1:04 pm)Losty Wrote: I suppose I misunderstood this post entirely. I didn't put words in your mouth, but I guess I just didn't understand what you were saying.

It's hard to see tone and inflection in written word unless it's accompanied by tons of emoticons. I wasn't implying that people here don't have common sense. I was trying to say, and I guess I worded it wrong, was that, for the most part, we, as humans, are not attracted to our own family members for a reason. I don't know... my personal feelings on it is that "ya just don't go there", but again, what two consenting people do is none of my business. I'd just feel sorry for any kids that might be born as a result. And any adult in a position of shaping and molding another human being, should really know better.

We talk all the time in the religious forum sections about how Lot slept with his own daughters and the wrongness with it. How is this any different than that? If we take issues with a bible telling a story of incest and we jump all over theists for believing in such a story, then turn around and do a complete about face and say, "well, this mother and son are consenting adults so they can do what they want", doesn't that pretty much put us in a "pot calling the kettle black" situation? We can't be okay with one situation and not okay with the other.

Maybe it would just be better to take a neutral stance on it and let those actually involved in those kinds of relationships, figure it out for themselves. The laws should get thrown out because hell, gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns, so how would any of these incest laws actually prevent incest?

My moral stance and my legal stance are completely different stances because I don't think it's ok to force morals via laws. I don't know that I would agree that all incest is morally wrong...but it's definitely not for me. I don't think it should be illegal, but not because the illegality doesn't stop people from doing it. Just because...adults should be allowed to make their own choices as long as they're not harming others.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:36 pm)Losty Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 1:21 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: It's hard to see tone and inflection in written word unless it's accompanied by tons of emoticons. I wasn't implying that people here don't have common sense. I was trying to say, and I guess I worded it wrong, was that, for the most part, we, as humans, are not attracted to our own family members for a reason. I don't know... my personal feelings on it is that "ya just don't go there", but again, what two consenting people do is none of my business. I'd just feel sorry for any kids that might be born as a result. And any adult in a position of shaping and molding another human being, should really know better.

We talk all the time in the religious forum sections about how Lot slept with his own daughters and the wrongness with it. How is this any different than that? If we take issues with a bible telling a story of incest and we jump all over theists for believing in such a story, then turn around and do a complete about face and say, "well, this mother and son are consenting adults so they can do what they want", doesn't that pretty much put us in a "pot calling the kettle black" situation? We can't be okay with one situation and not okay with the other.

Maybe it would just be better to take a neutral stance on it and let those actually involved in those kinds of relationships, figure it out for themselves. The laws should get thrown out because hell, gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns, so how would any of these incest laws actually prevent incest?

My moral stance and my legal stance are completely different stances because I don't think it's ok to force morals via laws. I don't know that I would agree that all incest is morally wrong...but it's definitely not for me. I don't think it should be illegal, but not because the illegality doesn't stop people from doing it. Just because...adults should be allowed to make their own choices as long as they're not harming others.

How can your morals not align with your views on legal matters, though? That doesn't make any sense.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:50 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: How can your morals not align with your views on legal matters, though? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. You have to obey the law if you don't want to get into trouble. You don't have to agree with the law being moral to do so.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:51 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 1:50 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: How can your morals not align with your views on legal matters, though? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. You have to obey the law if you don't want to get into trouble. You don't have to agree with the law being moral to do so.

No, it still doesn't make any sense. We are talking about stances here, not actions.

(August 11, 2016 at 1:50 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(August 11, 2016 at 1:36 pm)Losty Wrote: My moral stance and my legal stance are completely different stances because I don't think it's ok to force morals via laws. I don't know that I would agree that all incest is morally wrong...but it's definitely not for me. I don't think it should be illegal, but not because the illegality doesn't stop people from doing it. Just because...adults should be allowed to make their own choices as long as they're not harming others.

How can your morals not align with your views on legal matters, though? That doesn't make any sense.

Sure it does. I have no desire to legally force anyone to live in a way that aligns with my personal morals. Laws should be there to protect people from harm. No killing, no stealing, no speeding, no raping. And to enforce responsibilities: pay your taxes, register your vehicle, provide for your children.