IF it weren't for Luther you protestant shits would still be catholic shits.

That's what it has to do with it!

(May 11, 2011 at 2:48 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. I, like any commoner throughout the centuries, reads the Bible as it is presented to them in the language handed down by Christians. I will say this one more time for you - Pay Attention - I don't need an interpretive principle. The only people who have to redefine words and interpret scripture are christians trying desperately to defend the contradictions found therein.

Spin it how you like. It's a contradiction .... and it's FAR from the only one. How do you defend the blatant contradiction of facts that Min presented in post #2 or that RefJer presented in post #3? Are you going to argue interpretation then?

You may well feel that you are not applying an interpretive principle, but the fact is that you are doing so. You consider any talk about what the original Hebrew or Greek words meant and implied to Hebrew and Greek hearers to be "desperate redefinition", as if the translations we use (which differ, of course) somehow provide a direct correspondence between the original languages and modern English - and that is the interpretive principle that you are implying. "Interpretation" is not a dirty word - it is a perfectly normal thing that we have to do with any form of communication - it just means understanding what is intended to be meant.

You also assume that every Christian is some how ultimately emotionally invested in defending the Bible, when the reality is that many (myself included) are entirely disinterested in the whole matter. On matters of interpretation, I just approach it like everything that requires to be interpreted - I try to understand what the authors originally were communicating through it. It is not clear to me that anyone who has presented a "contradiction" in this thread has actually tried to get to grips with the original intent of the authors.

Are you willing to argue that the author of Genesis means to imply that God rested because he was tired? If you are not, then you are not even getting started when it comes to providing a contradiction. You have solely relied on what English translations appear to you to imply - this exposes the interpretive principle which, whether you like it or not, you assume by the way that you argue your case. If you really are serious that you think there is a contradiction, and you think that it is in any way important that other people know about it, then actually provide some argumentation for your interpretation of the text.

(May 11, 2011 at 3:44 pm)Minimalist Wrote: IF it weren't for Luther you protestant shits would still be catholic shits.

That's what it has to do with it!

..and what was the result? 90%+/- of the population of Germany killing each other off over wether a cracker was the flesh of Jesus, or wether it is merely Jesus' "holy ghost powers" existing inside the cracker.

( I know it was more than that, but DAMN!!!)

(May 11, 2011 at 3:44 pm)Minimalist Wrote: IF it weren't for Luther you protestant shits would still be catholic shits.

That's what it has to do with it!

Err...so nothing then. I am not a "Protestant Shit" (or a "Catholic Shit") in any case. If you want to use Luther as one of your witnesses, why don't you tell us about his views about whether we should be interested in the original languages? Oh yeah, because he says things like this:

"If I were younger I would want to learn this language [i.e. Hebrew], for without it one can never properly understand the Holy Scripture…. For that reason they have said correctly:
'The Jews drink out of the original spring, The Greeks drink out of the stream flowing out of the stream, The Latins, however, out of the puddle.'"

Oops.

(May 11, 2011 at 5:54 pm)Nimzo Wrote: Err...so nothing then. I am not a "Protestant Shit" (or a "Catholic Shit") in any case.

Err..no. If you are a Christian, you are either Catholic, or NON-Catholic (protestant)

I didnt make up these rules..thats just how it is. Yeah, I agree...its stupid.

Christianity has its horses share of stupidity

And if Luther hadn't had his own head so far up his ass he would have known that his precious fucking scriptures were written in Greek...not "Hebrew."

But...what do you expect from a Kraut with a chip on his shoulder?

(May 11, 2011 at 5:56 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Err..no. If you are a Christian, you are either Catholic, or NON-Catholic (protestant)

Let me know when you're able to source that definition of Protestant - I'm sure Eastern Orthodox Christians will be delighted with their new label.

---

(May 11, 2011 at 6:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And if Luther hadn't had his own head so far up his ass he would have known that his precious fucking scriptures were written in Greek...not "Hebrew."

So, you think that the OT was originally written in Greek?

The earliest extant version we possess is the Septuagint which was written in Greek in the 3d century BC.

We have no historical references to a Hebrew version by any other writers.

That's why the Dead Sea Scrolls were so important. While dating to the mid 2d century BC at the earliest they remain the earliest writings in Hebrew even though a considerable percentage of them were written in Aramaic and Greek.

(May 11, 2011 at 6:06 pm)Nimzo Wrote: I'm sure Eastern Orthodox Christians will be delighted with their new label.

Sorry, my bad.. I forgot the third set as Orthodox.

(May 11, 2011 at 6:06 pm)Nimzo Wrote: Let me know when you're able to source that definition of Protestant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation
The Protestant Reformation, also called the Protestant Revolt or the Reformation, was the European Christian reform movement that established Protestantism as a constituent branch of contemporary Christianity. It was led by Martin Luther, John Calvin and other early Protestants. The efforts of the self-described "reformers", who objected to ("protested") the doctrines, rituals and ecclesiastical structure of the Catholic Church, led to the creation of new national Protestant churches.

..but still, I was wrong in saying it was only two branches. Being in USA we dont see very many Orthodox types. Still, it isnt an excuse... I forgot and, oh well... sue me

...I have good JEW lawyers...

(May 11, 2011 at 5:56 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(May 11, 2011 at 5:54 pm)Nimzo Wrote: Err...so nothing then. I am not a "Protestant Shit" (or a "Catholic Shit") in any case.

Err..no. If you are a Christian, you are either Catholic, or NON-Catholic (protestant)

I didnt make up these rules..thats just how it is. Yeah, I agree...its stupid.

Christianity has its horses share of stupidity

Not quite mate."Protestant" actually has a fairly well define meaning. It refers to the Protestant Reformation of Europe, and break away churches which trace their origins to people such as Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Knox. (the happy clappy churces are no more than a dumbed down Calvinism.)

There are also Orthodox Christians (Eastern Europe) and then there are Copts (mainly in Egypt) and Ethiopian Christians. All of those those groups have a slightly different canon and are considered neither protestant nor quite "real" Catholics.That is because they do not recognise the Pope of Rome as their spiritual head. That schism can be traced to the power struggle which followed the second council of Nicea in the fourth Century.

THEN of course there is the special category of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.That mob of smug petite bourgeois nutters are neither Catholic nor Protestant. In fact, large numbers of Christians deny Mormons are Christians at all. Me? Don't know or care.

9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

"Interpretive principles" ? Oh please. Elitist, manipulative and divisive sophistry. The notion was invented by the perpetrators of two of the greatest confidence tricks in human history: Priests and organised religion. IE the fatuous notion that believers need translators and intermediaries between them and their god(s). I consider such self serving,self empowering and self enriching claims graphic evidence for my observation that ALL religions were invented by men FOR men.