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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:06 pm
As a naturalist, I believe that my conscious experiences are a part of nature. I believe my experience of making choices is equivalent to physical processes. So it's not like I'm something floating outside of nature who has deterministic decisions imposed on me; the structure of my personality and values has a physical correlate, and the decisions I make are equivalent to both the phenomenological processes I observe unfolding in my mind and my brain states.
In other words, I'm a compatibilist.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:11 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 4:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 3:54 pm)Irrational Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 9:56 am)Tiberius Wrote: Most people seem to get confused over free will because it certainly seems that we have it (we are actively thinking about decisions before making them).
The problem happens when you start to really question that "active thinking". Sure, you can say you went to an ice cream store and thought about whether to have chocolate or vanilla, and decided on chocolate, but... did you actually decide? There's no actual way to tell; we can't rewind time and observe you choosing vanilla instead. From an external perspective, all you did was go into the store and get chocolate.
It gets even more confusing when you think about the nature of free will vs the physical nature of the brain. The brain is a bunch of neurons firing in reaction to various stimuli. What if your brain is the one actually making the decision (predetermined by the stimuli) and your "thought process" in which you actively come to a decision is just an illusion, a byproduct of the brain.
Occams razor suggests that the illusion of free will is more likely than actual free will.
I agree with those premises but reach a different conclusion because I'm using imo a better definition of free as related to will. Even if I don't actually consciously make the decisions but are simply made aware of them after the fact, and even though external factors certainly play a role in the decision making process in an indirect manner, if it's my brain formulating these decisions, then it's still me (arbitrarily) making these decisions, though I may not be consciously making them. It's not like I end up consciously disapproving of these decisions. So I still do what I desire to do.
A better definition of free.....that doesn't explicitly reference, require, or depend upon any concept or meaning associated with what it means to be...free?
Is it better in the sense that it is more descriptive or informative (as regards freedom), or better in the sense that it allows you to maintain what you could not otherwise(as regards will)? As examples.
I can roll with it being you who makes decisions. Are they free?
Consciously, unconsciously (a bit of a noncognitive if were talking about decisions), either way. Are they free?
You desire to do this, you desire to do that. Is that free?
Do -any- of those comments you offered speak to freedom, in what way, free of what, how, and how might we be able to tell?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:23 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 9:56 am)Tiberius Wrote: ...
The brain is a bunch of neurons firing in reaction to various stimuli. What if your brain is the one actually making the decision (predetermined by the stimuli) and your "thought process" in which you actively come to a decision is just an illusion, a byproduct of the brain.
Occams razor suggests that the illusion of free will is more likely than actual free will.
I think the answer to this has to do more with causality than free will specifically. Is causality top-down, bottom-up, or what? In other words, which events are significant for determining consequences?
What if the answer is that causality is flat? Neither top-down nor bottom-up? What if your thought processes just correspond to the brain states that unfolded during the course of the decision-making processes? In that case, they determined the outcome of the process, and yet were not illusory. They were a little piece of nature, the part that is you.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:23 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 4:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
IMO, compatibalists free will is a term of avoidance for what are deterministic processes even in the compatibilists rendition...just as surely as roach coach taco meat is another word for dog. Nobody wants a beagle burrito, and nobody wants to think of themselves or their will as anything -other- than free or in some sort of authoritative control.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:35 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 4:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: IMO, compatibalists free will is a term of avoidance for what are deterministic processes even in the compatibilists rendition...just as surely as roach coach taco meat is another word for dog. Nobody wants a beagle burrito, and nobody wants to think of themselves or their will as anything -other- than free or in some sort of authoritative control.
The difference in these positions comes down to understanding that "control" is just equivalent to the outcome of causal processes unfolding in the executive functions of a human brain. What we observe in our immediate experience of decision making. Anything more "free" than that is not even worth wanting--a meaningless metaphysical thesis that is best left in the dark ages.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:45 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 4:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Right, so it's dog, but you prefer to call it taco meat. I'm not disagreeing with you, mind you...lol...just commenting on what it looks like to an outsider. The only difference between our positions is that I don't screw around with referring to what we have with the folkloric term. It would -seem- like there should be a bigger difference between a compatibilists position and a "LOLNo, stop fucking around" hard determinists position in this regard, there just never seems to be.
Do we have free will?
Compatibilist answer: Yes*
Determinist answer: No
*by yes we mean no, you see it;s all about how we define........yadda yadda yadda.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:46 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 4:48 pm by GrandizerII.)
(August 17, 2016 at 4:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 3:54 pm)Irrational Wrote: I agree with those premises but reach a different conclusion because I'm using imo a better definition of free as related to will. Even if I don't actually consciously make the decisions but are simply made aware of them after the fact, and even though external factors certainly play a role in the decision making process in an indirect manner, if it's my brain formulating these decisions, then it's still me (arbitrarily) making these decisions, though I may not be consciously making them. It's not like I end up consciously disapproving of these decisions. So I still do what I desire to do.
A better definition of free.....that doesn't explicitly reference, require, or depend upon any concept or meaning associated with what it means to be...free?
Is it better in the sense that it is more descriptive or informative (as regards freedom), or better in the sense that it allows you to maintain what you could not otherwise(as regards will)? As examples.
I can roll with it being you who makes decisions. Are they free?
Consciously, unconsciously (a bit of a noncognitive if were talking about decisions), either way. Are they free?
You desire to do this, you desire to do that. Is that free?
Do -any- of those comments you offered speak to freedom, in what way, free of what, how, and how might we be able to tell?
I am free in that I can often times make choices without coercion, and that these choices are often in accordance with who I am by nature.
Now if you want to nitpick about what it means to be coerced, or who I am as a person, you might as well nitpick about what it means to be alive, or to love, or to be rational, and so on. If you go deep enough, and you want to be really technical, all these ideas end up being doubtable anyway.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:52 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 4:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 4:46 pm)Irrational Wrote: I am free in that I can often times make choices without coercion, Can you?
Quote:and that these choices are often in accordance with who I am by nature.
Irrelevant.
Quote:Now if you want to nitpick about what it means to be coerced, or who I am as a person, you might as well nitpick about what it means to be alive, or to love, or to be rational, and so on. If you go deep enough, and you want to be really technical, all these ideas end up being doubtable anyway.
I'm sure any idea is doubtable, but that's a hell of a dodge. You're the one that chose to support an affirmation of free will with the ability to make uncoerced choices. It's actually just a reassertion, which is why establishing it would establish free will, or vv. Is it nitpicking to ask you to establish what you have repeatedly asserted?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:54 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 4:46 pm)Irrational Wrote: I am free in that I can often times make choices without coercion, Can you?
Yes, I can.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 4:58 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 4:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Right, so it's dog, but you prefer to call it taco meat. I'm not disagreeing with you, mind you...lol...just commenting on what it looks like to an outsider. The only difference between our positions is that I don't screw around with referring to what we have with the folkloric term. It would -seem- like there should be a bigger difference between a compatibilists position and a hard skeptics position in this regard, there just never seems to be.
I honestly think it's about getting over the specious metaphysics that defined a freely made decision as ex nihilo in the first place. You might call it dog meat, I call the incompatibilist libertarian position magical unicorn meat. It was meaningless to begin with. I'm happy to understand free will as an executive function of the brain, however causally deterministic it is. It's "free" in the sense that matters to persons, which is phenomenological.
A Gemma is forever.
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