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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 7:59 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 7:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Shhh, Jorg, there's an applecart here, we don't want to turn it over - it's important for reasons™.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 8:01 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 8:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 21, 2016 at 7:40 pm)Gemini Wrote: Because the article supported the compatibilist and not the colloquial sense. You can show me where they referenced contra-causality if you like, but I'm pretty sure I didn't miss it. Which establishes my point as effectively as anything can, and fails to establish any freedom of will...even if they just really like to call it that, for whatever reason.
Quote:So would you treat someone with frontal lobe damage the same way as someone with an anti-social personality? Should people who lack a neural mechanism for controlling impulses be incarcerated with people who have a neural mechanism for controlling impulses which has devoloped in ways antagonistic to civilized society? This both an ethical and legal question.
I'm the wrong person to ask. I'd treat -all- of us differently, in context..but I'm neither empowered nor qualified to make such decisions. I dig holes for a living. That's the irony of life (imo)..people like me (and far better than me) dig holes....the pope forms opinion.
Quote:Again: duress and coercion are not the same thing as deterministic causality. The deterministic outcome of the causal processes constituting my will aren't an external factor constraining me, as they would be per duress and coercion. The deterministic outcome of the causal processes constituting my will are identical to my will.
If you say so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 8:14 pm
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 8:28 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 8:30 pm by bennyboy.)
(August 21, 2016 at 7:56 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: (August 21, 2016 at 5:54 pm)Gemini Wrote: Being free from duress/coercion is a real property that human beings can have. To define language in such way as to permit distinctions that obtain on a regular basis (having legal autonomy vs. not having legal autonomy) rather than defining freedom of the will in terms of something that is at best a speculative plausibility and at worst incoherent is hardly a semantic game of hide and seek. It's just good linguistics.
What is happening in the brain of someone with a gun pointed at them that is different from the same brain imagining its future state after choosing the chocolate cake? How is having a gun pointed at my head not just another decision to be made? I fail to see the distinction between the two decisions is anything more than an artifact of your definition. You could define free will as making decisions in the absence of Bobo the clown, simply making a definition doesn't imbue the situation with metaphysical properties it didn't have before the definition. If our will isn't free under 'duress' then it isn't free under ordinary thought processes either. You say that being free from duress/coercion is a real property that human beings can have. I'm not seeing the 'real' part of it in the brain. Just decisions. Gun, no gun. Cake, no cake. It's all the same in the brain. The difference is that in one case, the person shits his pants and loses control over his ability to form intent and act on it, and in the other, he's afraid of getting shot.
Wait. . . I think I'm mixing things up here. What's the question again? 
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 8:54 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 8:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No he doesn't, he just forms a different intent based upon his situation, like he always does.
The -situation- is divergent, not his will or process thereof.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 8:58 pm
So, how is not fatalism an accurate way of looking at the world? 
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 9:03 pm
Other than the nagging fact that it isn't in evidence, as determinism is? IDK. 
Don't let that get in the way, though, seek out and serve whatever you feel your fate to be, it probably won't make a difference in your life, such as it is. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 9:03 pm
(August 21, 2016 at 8:54 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No he doesn't, he just forms a different intent based upon his situation, like he always does.
The -situation- is divergent, not his will or process thereof.
I doubt he intended to shit his pants. People rarely intend to do that.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 9:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2016 at 9:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's true, a great many of our actions are involuntary. Though I wouldn't highlight that fact if I were on the free will side of a free will/just will debate.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 21, 2016 at 9:04 pm
(August 21, 2016 at 9:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's true, a great many of our actions are involuntary.
. . . and they are not done with free will.
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