(September 26, 2016 at 3:58 am)Aractus Wrote: Apple hardware suffers from planned obsolescence, is non-user-serviceable, poor quality, and over priced. If a Macbook was the same quality as a Thinkpad, I'd give Apple full credit.

In your opinion, maybe. However I have owned several non-Apple laptops in my life and none have been as durable, or have lasted longer than my MacBooks. My wife is currently using my 2009 MacBook Pro with all the original hardware and it works just as well as the day I got it. It might need a RAM upgrade soon, but that's easy enough (yes, it is user-serviceable despite what you claim).

So if planned obsolescence means it will last 7 years, I'm fine with that, and I'm also fine with the price tag.

I had a Lenovo laptop where the left click button snapped (shitty plastic), and an HP laptop which overheated and killed the processor. Never had any issues with my MacBooks and that's why I'll keep buying them.

Atm it's Core 2 Quad Q6600 G0, R7 370, 8GB DDR2 RAM and 750W PSU but soon it will be like this: Core i5 or i7, an nVidia performance equivalent of R7 370, 8GB DDR3 and 750W PSU. I'm in the process of upgrading my PC and so far I got the RAM and the PSU and by the end of 2017 I'll have 32GB DDR3 (1600 MHz). Very soon I'll get ASUS B85+ with 1150 socket. And the video card will be changed to nVidia because the AMD drivers crash too often - sometimes 5 times a day and I can't play any game with such crappy drivers.

Gaming PC:

Computer:
Custom Build  (From over 5 years ago, just beat Fallout 4 last week on it though )

CPU:
AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition (Deneb, RB-C2 (Ridgeback))
3200 MHz (16.00x200.0) @ 799 MHz (4.00x200.0)

Motherboard:
ASUS M4A79XTD EVO

Memory:
16384 MBytes @ 666 MHz, 9.0-9-9-24

Graphics:
GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 650 Ti, 1024 MB GDDR5 SDRAM

Case:
Sentey Arvina GS-6400R


Mobile:

Computer:
HP EliteBook 8560w

CPU:
Intel Core i7-2820QM Processor (2.30 GHz, 8MB L3 cache, 4 cores/8 threads, 45 W)

Memory:
16384 MBytes DDR3 PC3-10600 SDRAM (1,333 MHz)

Graphics:
NVIDIA Quadro 2000M 2GB dedicated DDR3


CAD / GIS Workstation:

Computer:
HP Z400 Workstation

CPU:
Intel Xeon W3565 (Nehalem-WS 1S, D0) @ 3200 MHz (24.00x133.3) @ 3333 MHz (25.00x133.3)

Memory:
24576 MBytes @ 533 MHz, 7.0-7-7-20

Graphics:
MSI N750 (MS-V310)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750, 2048 MB GDDR5 SDRAM

(September 26, 2016 at 7:17 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Asus used to be tops, but I've heard their support system has gone to the dogs. 

I've got a co-worker that is fighting with ASUS support right now over his ROG laptop.

(September 26, 2016 at 8:23 am)Tiberius Wrote: In your opinion, maybe. However I have owned several non-Apple laptops in my life and none have been as durable, or have lasted longer than my MacBooks. My wife is currently using my 2009 MacBook Pro with all the original hardware and it works just as well as the day I got it. It might need a RAM upgrade soon, but that's easy enough (yes, it is user-serviceable despite what you claim).

So if planned obsolescence means it will last 7 years, I'm fine with that, and I'm also fine with the price tag.

User-serviceable means that you can replace the most common bits that wear out - in a laptop that's means the battery is the most important. Tell me can you buy a $40 battery from a store and install it, or do you need to give it to Apple so they can "service it" for you for $130? Worse still is the fact that Apple builds-in the batteries too, to further discourage user replacement. There's no valid reason to build it in, and plenty of good reasons not to. For example, you can use your laptop without needing a power source for twice as long if you take two batteries with you - whoops, can't do that with a Macbook.

Most builders are doing the battery inside nowadays, tbh.

I would love a MacBook for sure. I need an Apple platform at some point. But for a quality one out of the box, you're not going to find one for under 2k.

The difference is not worth the extra $1000 for me, at this point.

(September 27, 2016 at 3:06 am)Aractus Wrote:

(September 26, 2016 at 8:23 am)Tiberius Wrote: In your opinion, maybe. However I have owned several non-Apple laptops in my life and none have been as durable, or have lasted longer than my MacBooks. My wife is currently using my 2009 MacBook Pro with all the original hardware and it works just as well as the day I got it. It might need a RAM upgrade soon, but that's easy enough (yes, it is user-serviceable despite what you claim).

So if planned obsolescence means it will last 7 years, I'm fine with that, and I'm also fine with the price tag.

User-serviceable means that you can replace the most common bits that wear out - in a laptop that's means the battery is the most important. Tell me can you buy a $40 battery from a store and install it, or do you need to give it to Apple so they can "service it" for you for $130? Worse still is the fact that Apple builds-in the batteries too, to further discourage user replacement. There's no valid reason to build it in, and plenty of good reasons not to. For example, you can use your laptop without needing a power source for twice as long if you take two batteries with you - whoops, can't do that with a Macbook.

Erm...yeah, you can remove the battery and replace it.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro...ement/3403

You can also replace the HDD and RAM.

As for your suggestion that there's no valid reason to build it in, I disagree. You make the laptop thinner when you don't have to have a mechanism to quick-eject the battery. Same reason Apple got rid of the built-in CD tray.

The MacBook battery lasts over 10 hours. Most people don't need it to last longer. Most people also don't carry around a spare laptop battery with them either. Your objection seems to be based on personal use and not general use. Apple is trying to appeal to a wide market.

(September 27, 2016 at 8:22 am)Tiberius Wrote: Erm...yeah, you can remove the battery and replace it.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro...ement/3403

You can also replace the HDD and RAM.

As for your suggestion that there's no valid reason to build it in, I disagree. You make the laptop thinner when you don't have to have a mechanism to quick-eject the battery. Same reason Apple got rid of the built-in CD tray.

What you mean by opening it and disconnecting a delicate ribbon-cable clearly labelled "WARNING: DO NOT REMOVE BATTERY"? Oh, and that's if you happen to have a triwing screwdriver handy. And where are you going to buy a new battery from? You can't - you have to go to Apple and they won't sell you the battery, they'll sell you the battery replacement service. And when you do that they won't even give your old battery to keep as a spare either.

Your argument that you can make it thinner is nonsense (laptops do not need to be as thin as tablets either). A laptop battery simply attaches to a cut-out region of the base, providing its own covering - therefore it does not need to be substantially thicker. How about spill-resistant keyboards? This has been a standard feature of Lenovo laptops for ages. Dell, HP, Toshiba, ASUS, just about any brand you can think of has them now. Except Apple. I can't tell you how many times I spill shit on my PC keyboard - at least once or twice a year - that's why I keep a spare handy at all times. In fact at the moment this keyboard has a sticky F7 key (which is irrelevant since how often do you need to press it?)

Not only that, but Apple refuses to fix water damage under the statutory warranty which is illegal, because the company are total cunts that don't want to repair their products or honour Australian consumer law. In fact, they even diagnose products that have never had water damage as having it simply because when they opened it a marker was displaced.

Apple products are deliberately designed to fail, and they refuse to sell replacement parts - including batteries.

(September 27, 2016 at 9:19 am)Aractus Wrote: What you mean by opening it and disconnecting a delicate ribbon-cable clearly labelled "WARNING: DO NOT REMOVE BATTERY"? Oh, and that's if you happen to have a triwing screwdriver handy. And where are you going to buy a new battery from? You can't - you have to go to Apple and they won't sell you the battery, they'll sell you the battery replacement service. And when you do that they won't even give your old battery to keep as a spare either.

Nice moving the goalposts there. You asked if you could "replace the most common bits that wear out". I linked to a tutorial from ifixit.com, which as you are probably aware, is a highly recommended site for making repairs to various pieces of tech. So, regardless of what the sticker says (it's a sticker, not a ribbon cable, that has that message on it), you can remove the battery and replace it.

As to where you buy a new battery from, have you ever heard of Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?...ok+battery

Quote:Your argument that you can make it thinner is nonsense (laptops do not need to be as thin as tablets either). A laptop battery simply attaches to a cut-out region of the base, providing its own covering - therefore it does not need to be substantially thicker.

The mechanism that allows the battery to be easily removed, and also holds the battery in place, is bulkier than a battery which is built into the laptop. That should just be obvious.

You say that laptops do not need to be as thin as tablets, and that's your opinion. Apple isn't selling its products to you, it's selling them to a wider audience. People seem to like thinner laptops. That has been a trend across all personal laptops for years.

Quote:How about spill-resistant keyboards? This has been a standard feature of Lenovo laptops for ages. Dell, HP, Toshiba, ASUS, just about any brand you can think of has them now. Except Apple. I can't tell you how many times I spill shit on my PC keyboard - at least once or twice a year - that's why I keep a spare handy at all times. In fact at the moment this keyboard has a sticky F7 key (which is irrelevant since how often do you need to press it?)

This is veering into a debate about which laptops are better / have more features. I'm not interested in debating that because ultimately people decide based on personal preferences. I'm only interested in correcting misinformation.

Quote:Not only that, but Apple refuses to fix water damage under the statutory warranty which is illegal, because the company are total cunts that don't want to repair their products or honour Australian consumer law. In fact, they even diagnose products that have never had water damage as having it simply because when they opened it a marker was displaced.

So sue them, or have the Australian government sue them. This has nothing to do with their laptops being user-serviceable.

Quote:Apple products are deliberately designed to fail

I disagree, and unless you have actual evidence to back that statement up, you are just making stuff up.

Why hasn't my 8 year old laptop failed yet, if it's designed to fail? Hmm? Literally every other laptop I've had has failed in some way after 1 or 2 years of general use. I carried my MacBook to lectures and back for 3 years, it's been shipped around the world, I've probably dropped it a few times by accident. Still works. Yes, I know this is all anecdotal, but at least it's better than just pulling "facts" out my ass and pretending that Apple purposefully sells shitty laptops.

Quote:they refuse to sell replacement parts - including batteries.

Yet as you admitted, they sell a service to replace the batteries, so it's not like non-technical people are left with no option. If you don't like that, don't buy a MacBook. If you're OK with taking the back of the laptop off (which is designed to come off, by the way) and replacing the battery yourself, you're fine.

Tiberius, I'm sorry, but you lose this argument. Apple has a deliberate policy of overcharging for repairs, or for doing unnecessary repairs, especially for items that are no longer under warranty. It's one of the many ways that Apple finds to keep draining customers' money after the initial sale.

It's not uncommon, for example, that a simple chip burns out on a motherboard, and Apple insists that the motherboard must be replaced for hundreds of dollars, when a $10 chip and two minutes with a soldering iron could completely restore the product. PC repair doesn't have this problem-- because you can literally choose almost any tech dude within 10 km who can diagnose hardware problems and either fix them, replace them with used parts, or sell one of multiple alternatives from various companies to repair the product.

Now, I'm not saying that Mac products are bad. Obviously, they are good, because many high-end professionals choose them. But Apple's customer culture is patronizing and downright insulting. I fucking hate that company so much, not because of what they make, but because of how they think about customers-- Sheeple, for sure.