We view ourselves as our consciousness, I believe?  While physically, we exist in the true physical world, our consciousness only experiences our perception of the true physical world.  And that perception of the world is stored in our brain.  What sound does a dog make?  "Bark."  Of course, sound doesn't really exist, that's just a wave that we only perceive as what we think of as sound in our head after our brain gets a hold of it.  So is sound real or not?  I'd say subjectively, it is, even though it's not?

So we live in two worlds.  The physical world that obeys the laws of physics, math, logic, science, etc...  And the perception of the world, which does it's own thing.  If I think I can fly, in my perception of the world, I can fly.  At least until I try to fly, at which point I will fail, and the laws of the world stored in my brain will change "Flying" from "yup" to "nope."  

The same goes with Santa Clause.  As adults, we know more about the 'real' world, to know that the physics of flying reindeer and traveling the earth in one night, etc.. isn't possible, and that's reflected in our perception of the world.  

But a kid's perception of the world isn't governed by those things yet.  So in their mind, Santa exists.  And you could theoretically point to where he exists in their reality in their brain.  Much like a dream, the rules that govern our perception are iffy.  In a dream, you could fly, because in a dream you are fully creating your reality outside of the reach of the true physical world, even though you are still inside the true physical world.  Sort of like writing a book. Bob can fly in the book. People can't fly, and Bob doesn't exist, but Bob exists in the story, and he can fly. So what's Bob, and can he fly?

Is God any different.  For a person that believes in God, God exists in their perception of reality.  And our consciousness experiences life through our perception of reality.  So it is real to them.  To the point, theoretically, we could point in their brain where God exists.  We know God doesn't exist in "true reality" because we've updated our perception of reality with more rules and laws than they have.  But believers perceived realities aren't affected by that.  
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I made this about God, because that's what people here like to talk about.  But my real interest is how much credence we should give to our perception of reality vs. reality.  Which is more real to an individual?  How should we treat the physical aspect of our perceived reality that exists in our brain, and how should we treat others' perceived reality?

If we were to view our perceived reality as valid, we Atheists could also get some things we want (or already haev thanks to this).  Morality?  Boom, got it.  Value?  Sure, got it.  Meaning? Heaps of it!  Those things are just more perceived ideas that don't exist in the real reality, but exist in our perceived reality.

What do you mean by subjective existence?

This is why I always want to separate the belief that a god exists from the independent existence of an actual god. I have no doubt the former exist as real (subjectively) for at least some believers. To tell them that it doesn't would be counterfactual - for god as a subjective entity. Might just as well tell someone the love they feel for their mate is just in their head. So what? Where else should it be? If xtians could just let the big, bad, omni god out there go and embrace a personal god it sure would make communication easier on both sides.

Concepts that exist purely in the mind are real, to the extent that the individual can conceptualize the existence of something in the mind that clearly does not exist in reality outside of the mind.

(November 6, 2016 at 2:15 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Concepts that exist purely in the mind are real, to the extent that the individual can conceptualize the existence of something in the mind that clearly does not exist in reality outside of the mind.

But it can get them through the nights. That's why I always keep saying, believe what you want if it rocks your boat. I only get upset if someone tries to shove their individual believes on the population at large.

Personally, I'd say that sound -does- really exist, even if we cant hear it (ultra/infra sound) and even if our perception of it is not strictly speaking, accurate as to what it is.  Seems more like an issue of two disparate subjects.  Does sound exist.  Is our perception accurate.  The latter can be false while the former is true, and as such it;s not proper to draw an inference in that direction, that -because- our perception is/may be inaccurate, sound doesn't really exist.

God doesn't exist in the mind. The concept of God exists in the mind. Superman doesn't exist in the mind. The concept of Superman exists in the mind.

Now here's a question: Does the imagination exist? And here's another: Does imaginaryness exist? And here's another: is there a difference between the two previous questions?

Meh, I'd say it's 6 of one half dozen of the other.  If all god -is- is a concept, then the concept of god existing in the mind and god existing in the mind are just two ways of saying the same thing.  I'm sure some apologist would have a field day if you gave them an inch, but i like to leave enough rope to tie a noose, lol.

Is this what Schroedinger and his cat was all about?

That the perception of reality we exist in has different truth's than the 'true' reality?  That the cat may be dead in the real world, but in my perception of the real world, it could be alive or dead, and only by opening the box to see, I effectively make it dead in my perception of the real world, as well.
re concept vs. real, we only experience concepts, because everything we interact with/know is just a data version of it stored in our brain.

(November 6, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: God doesn't exist in the mind. The concept wish for God exists in the mind. Superman doesn't exist in the mind. The concept of Superman exists in the mind.

Fixed that for you.  They do so want their fairy tales to be true.