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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 2:58 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 2:49 pm)Faith No More Wrote: If you look at the Trump supporters here, you'll see it wasn't apathy towards his racist ideals. It was do anything to justify that this isn't racism, so they can convince themselves that they aren't aiding and abetting.
Make a distinction, will you?
I tend to believe CL when she says her parents didn't vote for Dump because of his racist message. Others are just the usual suspects but they're hardly representative and they're not all American.
And I repeat, voting for that creature because he seemed to endorse some pet value of theirs too, doesn't make it any better. It's aiding and abetting what he said and my contempt for all of them stays unchanged. But for different reasons because I don't like simplifications. They always cloud judgment. In this case on a pretty important issue.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:03 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2016 at 3:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I just don;t see much of a distinction. To say that I didn't vote for the racist parts, but am willing to put up with the racist parts because of the other stuff™..
-and let's remember how it was he planned to boost the economy.... By kicking out the mexicans, and taking things back from the chinese......-
.....shows that I'm at least willing to let all that racist shit happen to those people™ in order to get what I want.
Which is pretty, damned, racist. "I don't think they're inferior, but if putting them back in their place will net me a buck -I'm all for it". OFC, they say they held their noses (because that makes it better, I guess?)...but these are the same people who were too ashamed to admit they voted/would vote for the man in the first place, skewing our polls.......they knew what they were doing, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:05 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 3:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I just don;t see much of a distinction. To say that I didn't vote for the racist parts, but am willing to put up with the racist parts because of the other stuff™..
Hence aiding and abetting and hence my contempt for that people also. But it's important to look at the differences because racist only gets you so far. It's the "good" people still voting despite knowing the message, that are more of a concern. And to adress that, one has to break through their shield of being apathetic.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:09 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2016 at 3:11 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Good people do racist shit. It's the kneejerk response that they can't, or that our love for those "good" people somehow absolves them of the racist shit they've done that's just too juicy for me to pass up.
I don't make the distinction because I don't see one, and no such distinction needs be made. I've been surrounded by good, well loved racists my entire life. They deserve to be called good people. They deserve the love that people afford them. They also.....deserve the title of racist, of bigot. These are not mutually exclusive descriptors.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:11 pm
My dad begrudgingly voted Trump, my mom begrudgingly voted Hillary. My dad still hates racism despite voting for Trump, my mom still hates abortion despite voting for Hillary.
Honestly, my dad is SO anti racism, he calls ME out when I complain about Mexicans driving slow in front of me. I live in a border town with a lot of people driving around with Mexican license plates and they always drive super slow.
As for my mom, I don't remember if it was in this thread or another, but I explained her very personal and very strong feelings against abortion, and her teen pregnancy with my sister.
Anyway, voting for Hillary and for Trump doesn't put them into any sort of box.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:15 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My dad begrudgingly voted Trump, my mom begrudgingly voted Hillary. My dad still hates racism despite voting for Trump, my mom still hates abortion despite voting for Hillary.
Yeah, but you're kind of making my point. Without people begrudgingly voting for anyone transporting that kind of message, not even Hitler would have been possible. It's no excuse because the message and the signs, such as the KKK endorsment, were out there. For everyone to see. If someone doesn't share these views and still strengthens the one doing it, they're just as much to blame. And I for one hold them responsible and feel nothing but contempt for them.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:15 pm
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2016 at 3:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Human beings are complicated. My grandmother calls my grandfather a bigot all the time...resists his bigoted comments and makes it clear that she finds them distasteful She, too......happens to be a racist. Just not as racist as him, lol. She doesn;t realize it, ofc. No one has the heart to tell her, either. 
On a related note....it's unlikely that my children understand all of daddys many personal flaws and failings. It's not as if I advertise them to my spawn. I often find myself correcting them for things I quietly recognize -in- myself. One could understand why my kids don;t see me for who I am, and...if I have anything to say about it, never will.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:20 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 3:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't make the distinction because I don't see one, and no such distinction needs be made. I've been surrounded by good, well loved racists my entire life. They deserve to be called good people. They deserve the love that people afford them. They also.....deserve the title of racist, of bigot. These are not mutually exclusive descriptors.
But you appreciate that you have to understand a problem first before being able to adress it? That's why I'm generally against Hitler comparisons, as I was against Bush's "you're either with us or against us" as well as simplifying what happened now.
It misses the mark. And if we want to learn anything to prevent things like that to happen, we should bloody well understand any given problem on it's own merit.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:20 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 2:19 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Yeah, I'm speaking in the context of this discussion, not from the perspective of the candidate who'll be running. That's exactly why I wrote that Hillary using the term "basket of deplorables" was a big blunder.
I think it's important to make those Trump voters understand that we don't think all of them are irredeemable bigots. But it is equally important to get them to understand that a vote cannot be spent a la carte, and you select from a menu of your candidate's positions. Like it or not, when you vote (for whatever reason) for a bigot, his bigotry has gotten your support. When you buy the boat, you have to take the leaks, too.
But if you say this, you have to say it about Hillary''s voters too:
"Like it or not, when you vote (for whatever reason) for a liar/criminal/corrupt politician, those traits have your support."
And I do. You cannot separate out one facet of the candidate who won your vote and claim that your vote didn't help that facet move forward too, because it did.
(November 18, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think it honestly doesn't do any good to sit here and chastise people for voting for who they did.
I don't think it does any ill to point out the flaws which their votes supported, either.
(November 18, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The 2 "real" candidates for president both sucked. Many people simply voted for who they thought was less awful. But it's over now. Whatever side wants to win next time, has to play their cards right.
Yeah, that's pretty obvious.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
November 18, 2016 at 3:21 pm
(November 18, 2016 at 3:15 pm)abaris Wrote: (November 18, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My dad begrudgingly voted Trump, my mom begrudgingly voted Hillary. My dad still hates racism despite voting for Trump, my mom still hates abortion despite voting for Hillary.
Yeah, but you're kind of making my point. Without people begrudgingly voting for anyone transporting that kind of message, not even Hitler would have been possible. It's no excuse because the message and the signs, such as the KKK endorsment, were out there. For everyone to see. If someone doesn't share these views and still strengthens the one doing it, they're just as much to blame. And I for one hold them responsible and feel nothing but contempt for them.
I agree that you shouldn't vote for someone who doesn't represent your values just because you think they're "less bad" than the other.
Thus the reason I refused to vote for either one of those clowns. I don't agree with what either one of my parents did and tried to dissuade them both.
But what I'm saying is that I'm not going to label them just because they did, or to accuse them now that everything is done and over with of facilitating racism or facilitating abortion or whatever. They obviously see it differently than I did with the votes, and that's that.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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