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Trump won the white working-man vote..
RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
Opoponax Wrote:
Mister Agenda Wrote:What did blaming Naderites accomplish? Half the Dems stayed home and 13% voted for Bush...every single 3rd party candidate got more votes than Nader lost by. The man couldn't carry his own home state.

I get that blaming 3rd party candidates is easy...it's also really lazy.

No it isn't. Third party votes are convinced they made a more moral choice than anyone else. It's absurd, but generally, that's the belief. And to argue with them about it is a fucking hassle because of their self-righteousness. 

And I hold the people who stayed home far more responsible than anyone else. Make no mistake about that. 

As for Nader, it should have served as a reminder for decades as to what can happen when a candidate with absolutely no chance of winning siphons votes off from candidates that do stand a chance of winning. 

So now we have two Presidential elections in the last 16 years  where third party voters played a significant role in helping someone get elected (who obviously wasn't the candidate they voted for). 

1. George W. Bush
2. Donald "I'm Not Going to Settle That Lawsuit Okay Here's $25,000,000 To Settle That Lawsuit" Fuckface Trump. 

And I'll say it again: 109,000 votes over 3 states. That was the difference. Check it out:


http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/jill-stein...nal-votes/

Wisconsin
Overall Trump margin of victory: 27,257 votes
Jill Stein vote total: 30,980
Gary Johnson vote total: 106,442


Michigan
Overall Trump margin of victory: 13,107 votes
Jill Stein vote total: 51,427
Gary Johnson vote total: 172,726


Pennsylvania
Overall Trump margin of victory: 71,794
Jill Stein vote total: 48,657
Gary Johnson vote total: 142,334 (with 99.93% in)



Florida
Overall Trump margin of victory: 119,489
Jill Stein vote total: 64,060
Gary Johnson vote total: 206,189



Them's the facts. Third party voters played a very real, very significant role in putting Trump in the White House.

Do you know the percentage who would have voted for Clinton if they hadn't voted 3rd Party? If not, how do you conclude that those numbers helped Trump? For all you know, Clinton might have lost by more votes if all those people had restricted themselves to just Clinton or Trump. Which is a major reason why blaming 3rd Parties is a waste of time: not only does blaming them not get them to vote for your candidate (a lot of people did that in advance of this election, still got record numbers of 3rd Party votes); you can't know for sure that they weren't more help than hindrance to your candidate.

The percentages are facts. The way that you're interpreting them is opinion. And in my opinion, the whole tactic of blaming people for election results is counterproductive in that, if anything, it has the effect of making them dig in their heels. 'It's your fault Trump is president' isn't going to bring more people to the polls or get more 3rd Party voters to vote Democrat.

If you want 3rd Party voters to vote for your candidate, run a candidate that they feel they can support without betraying their principles...and you'll have to choose which 3rd Party voters you want the support of. Many Greens will pass up their candidate for a democrat who is strong enough on environmental issues, for instance. People who didn't show up need to be motivated to do so, and 'it'll be your fault if we lose!' isn't exactly an inspiring message.

Even if you're right, it's unhelpful.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
The problem you keep referring to, that you seem to think should motivate us to let "accidental racists" do racist shit in the peace and quiet that racists have always desired and thrived upon, just doesn't seem like a problem, to me. Whereas your solution, does. Pretty easy to understand, even if we don't agree. Like I said, you go ahead and keep appealing to their better nature. Try to talk them out of hating or into caring. Try to break down all of those foundational "realities" attached to som many other important concepts and relationships in their lives. Good luck, I wish you the best, I really do. I'll be over here, pointing and laughing, playing on the lowest common denominator.

Those who are still capable of shame and embarassment are reachable. Those who are not, for whatever rationalization that either you or they provide, are not. They've long since passed the point of accidental racism, past apathy..and have moved themselves into the antipathy category. Railing against not only the notion that they should care, but anyone who so much as speaks up against their apathetic little applecarts. We see it day in and day out, on these boards and elsewhere. Take it up with them, not me.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
Fair enough.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Trump won the white working-man vote..
(November 21, 2016 at 12:40 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
Catholic_Lady Wrote:And as I've repeated 3 times now, I do think it's just as wrong to discriminate based on religious beliefs as it is to discriminate based on race. The fact that I'm pointing out that Muslim is a religion, does not diminish how wrong it is to discriminate against them. My sentiments are the same as yours. 

Holy moly.   

As for whether or not it sounds ignorant to refer to a religious belief as a race, well we'll just have to disagree on that.

I can see why you're confused by the response you're getting. Some atheists here have gone on rants about how Islam isn't a race, so it's not a theist/atheist thing.

The issues with pointing out that nuance are that it sounds like a 'yes, but...'. "Police shouldn't be shooting so many black people." "Yes, but if they weren't breaking the law, police wouldn't shoot them." The other issue that comes to mind is that disentangling race from religion isn't so simple. Sure, there are Muslims of all races; but in the minds of many (if not most) anti-Muslim bigots, their dislike is tangled up with their mental image of a brown person/foreigner/not-as-white-as-me other. By focusing on the religion, it gives racists cover to hate people of color without being called on their racism.

Ordinarily, I'm all for semantic quibbling; but people who associate anti-Muslim bigotry with racism are not really wrong, even though literal racism might not be involved for some people who dislike Muslims, and it's highly unlikely that they actually don't know Muslim isn't really a race.

Not trying to beat up on you, just trying to provide some perspective.

It's just a pet peeve of mine because it is incorrect and sounds ignorant to refer to Muslim as race. And if you're having a discussion with someone who has a prejudice against Muslims, calling it racism only gives them ammo against your argument. It's counter productive, to say the least. We don't need to call it racism to point out that it's wrong to discriminate against entire groups of people bc of their religious beliefs. If while discussing it with an "anti Muslim" person it comes out that it is indeed only about the fact that they are Arab and not bc they worship "Allah," then you can point out their racist prejudice. Until then, if their argument against Muslims is their beliefs, then counter their points by stating facts about what many Muslims (especially those in the West) are actually like, rather than immediately playing the race card. Facts and education go a much longer way imho, but to each their own I suppose. As I said, my initial comment on it was meant to be a bit of a tease, like correcting someone's grammar. If it's that important to someone to refer to Muslim as race, they can knock themselves out lol. I wasn't trying to get into a fight about it.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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