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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 3:46 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 7:55 am)robvalue Wrote: All these arguments are really saying are:
1. Some things need a cause. [Fair enough, although you should really talk about material and efficient causes to be clear]
2. Out of the things that need causes, there can't be infinite regression. [This is just an unsupported assertion, but let's allow it]
3. So there must be something that doesn't need a cause starting the chain.
That would indeed be special pleading. Fortunately that's not close to any demonstration Aquinas gave.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:02 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2016 at 4:07 pm by Simon Moon.)
(November 22, 2016 at 3:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (November 22, 2016 at 7:55 am)robvalue Wrote: All these arguments are really saying are:
1. Some things need a cause. [Fair enough, although you should really talk about material and efficient causes to be clear]
2. Out of the things that need causes, there can't be infinite regression. [This is just an unsupported assertion, but let's allow it]
3. So there must be something that doesn't need a cause starting the chain.
That would indeed be special pleading. Fortunately that's not close to any demonstration Aquinas gave.
For argument's sake even if you are correct concerning this not being special pleading, Aquinas' 5 ways has many other problems and flaws.
Aquinas did not 'demonstrate' anything. He came up with flawed logical arguments.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:05 pm
(November 21, 2016 at 12:45 pm)Opoponax Wrote: How is science "self-defeating"? What does that even mean?
I understand how drug addiction is self-defeating. One seeks relief, but only causes oneself more pain. How is that analogous to say, germ theory or the scientific method itself?
And Aquinas' argument used by the OP was intriguing at the time, but has been so thoroughly debunked for so long, it's weird that anyone mentions it beyond its use as an introductory tool in Philosophy 101.
You are dealing with people who desperately need to con themselves.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 4:02 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (November 22, 2016 at 3:46 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That would indeed be special pleading. Fortunately that's not close to any demonstration Aquinas gave. For argument's sake even if you are correct concerning this not being special pleading, Aquinas' 5 ways has many other problems and flaws. Aquinas did not 'demonstrate' anything. He came up with flawed logical argument. Gee, if you say so...
I'll let theologian grade the papers for a while. I'll just put ya'll down as more drop-outs of Theology 101.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:13 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (November 22, 2016 at 4:02 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: For argument's sake even if you are correct concerning this not being special pleading, Aquinas' 5 ways has many other problems and flaws. Aquinas did not 'demonstrate' anything. He came up with flawed logical argument. Gee, if you say so...
I'll let theologian grade the papers for a while. I'll just put ya'll down as more drop-outs of Theology 101.
I wouldn't consider dropping out of Deep Studies of Bullshit a bad thing.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:14 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
I'll let theologian grade the papers for a while. I'll just put ya'll down as more drop-outs of Theology 101.
If you say so but I think of myself as more of a run-away.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2016 at 4:19 pm by Cyberman.)
Can't resist; sorry.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2016 at 4:25 pm by Simon Moon.)
(November 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (November 22, 2016 at 4:02 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: For argument's sake even if you are correct concerning this not being special pleading, Aquinas' 5 ways has many other problems and flaws. Aquinas did not 'demonstrate' anything. He came up with flawed logical argument. Gee, if you say so...
I'll let theologian grade the papers for a while. I'll just put ya'll down as more drop-outs of Theology 101.
Why should I care about Theology 101?
The 5 Ways should be evaluated strictly within the purview of logic and philosophy.
Why not open a thread defending the 5 Ways and let us do our best to refute them?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 4:29 pm
I believe he did that one time or another.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Atheism is irrational.
November 22, 2016 at 5:24 pm
(November 22, 2016 at 4:24 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Why not open a thread defending the 5 Ways and let us do our best to refute them?
I'm offering this merely so you have a better understanding of the 5 Ways. If you have any particular objection, feel free to make them, but just so you know I won't have much time to reply given the up-coming USA holiday. Besides, I'm rather tired of defending the 5W on AF because there are so many misunderstandings about them. The typical objections, like special pleading, only come from those who don't understand the 5W. For quite some time I have been willing to explain the 5W as clearly as possible. I did so only to put my understanding to the test and am satisfied that they stand-up to close scrutiny. YMMV
Official Debate
The above said, I would note that the most compelling arguments IMHO against the 5W came from Hume and Kant. These have some merit but I personally feel they devolve into paradox. These are rarely if ever presented as refutations by AF members. I don't know why and I don't feel like speculating.
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