(November 23, 2016 at 3:17 pm)Balaco Wrote: Again, thanks for all the informative responses. I know atheism isn't something we choose to be or give a shot, and the reason I've been having atheistic thoughts is mainly because I never questioned my faith too much, and now I'm losing confidence in it. Obviously my conscience is conflicted here, as I'm so used to firmly believing in my faith. I'm worried that I'd be sinning and doubting God too much...but at the same time, if God isn't real, then it doesn't matter at all.

I'll see to responding to some posts.

Doubting God won't matter much, no, and many things that are considered sinning by the church won't matter either. But many other things that are considered as sinning still matter, and should be carefully evaluated for their impact on you and others.

(November 23, 2016 at 12:39 am)Vincent Wrote:

(November 22, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Balaco Wrote: Atheists, why do you reject the idea of God, and why should I? I know that your answers will include "there's no evidence" and all that, but please try to explain.

Hey bud. Don't know if you're planning on coming back to this thread, but I'm going to toss my thoughts into the mix. 

First of all, I can't tell you what to believe. I do not much like the religion you follow, but it's not my mission to de-convert you. Follow what feels right. 

That aside, I can offer you my own journey to atheism. I was raised in a household where the Christian god was believed in but not actively worshiped. We did not read the Bible or attend church. Most of my religious experiences came from spending time with my grandmother, who was a devout Baptist. Nothing that happened to me drove me away from the religion; I was overall apathetic to it. I considered myself agnostic through much of my adolescence. It wasn't until I entered college that I gave further thought to the god idea, and I started asking serious questions. 

I remember staring up at the stars one night. It had never occurred to me before just how small Earth and humanity are, and how overwhelmingly large the universe was. I looked up, and I saw so many stars. Hundreds. More than I could count. And each star was billions of miles away, and each one had planets orbiting around it. There were millions of other solar systems out there, millions of celestial bodies and millions of miles of space between them, just in our galaxy alone. And our galaxy, too, was just one in billions. Our planet is no more significant than a grain of sand on a beach. 

I guess I always knew that, but fully contemplating it made me ask: How can humanity be the centerpiece of any diety's plan, when we were no more than one mutated species on a tiny speck of dust in an incomprehensibly vast universe? Why were there billions and billions of other planets out there, almost all of which are completely uninhabitable to us? Why are there billions of other galaxies, billions of other suns, billions of other solar systems, and here we are, on this one, tiny planet? What is the purpose for all the rest of it? I searched for an answer to this question, and the only response I kept getting was "the rest of it was for the glory of god, like him playing around with the universe before creating us". That didn't satisfy me. He could make whatever he wanted, but instead of making other worlds of beauty and life, he made virtually everything off our planet desolate and inhospitable. Environments that would kill us if we took one breath of its air. And most of it is just empty space, empty space that we cannot survive in without complex scientific equipment. We cannot populate 99.9% of the universe. So, what then, god just put it there for the looks? 

And another question came to mind. If a being existed that was so vast and powerful it could create a universe as large and infinitely complex as the one we exist in... why the hell would that being care about humanity? To such a being we would appear as less than ants, and yet it would go through the trouble of writing a book, of creating a "son" in the form of one of us, of judging us for our behaviors, of caring who we slept with, of caring whether we worshiped it? No. That was nonsensical to me. If a god created this universe, this universe so so big, it would not give a single fuck if an ape descendant got on its knees and prayed to it. Such a being would not require validation from something so small. Believing that we are that special, that a god would care about us, was arrogance on the part of our species. It was humanity looking for meaning in its own existence, looking for some reassurance that we are not just evolved animals that came about through various mutations and millions of years of natural selection. 

But that was not the only thing driving me from theism. I came to an understanding that the afterlife probably did not exist. I figured that everything we are, everything that makes us us, is entirely a product of our brains. Our personality, our memories, our fears, our emotions, our hopes, our motivations, our ability to comprehend language and solve complex problems and make connections... all of that can be explained with a course in physiology and psychology. It's all a result of completely material processes. And it ends, every single bit of it, when we die. Our brain shuts off, our body stops functioning, and we are gone. The brain does not transcend to a different state of being; there is no afterlife for it. It just... stops. And if that is the case, then what is carried into the afterlife? It can't be us, because the thing that made us who we are is gone. I began to realize that the afterlife was a story, created by humans frightened of death, of a life that ends when our mortal bodies do. I've heard it said that animals have no soul, that there is no afterlife for them, not in Christian theology. Why are we so different? Because our brain is more advanced, because we are more evolved? That doesn't prove the soul's existence, and thus it doesn't prove an afterlife. There is no reason to believe in a soul aside from the fact that a book is telling you to. And without a soul, without the afterlife, the Christian god's entire existence is thrown into serious question. 

But beyond even that, I contemplated a world where there was no god, and what such a world would look like. I imagined it would be filled with harsh, barren planets, life capable of existing on only a scarce few. I imagined it would be filled, most of it, with empty, useless space. I imagined it would run on completely observable systems, on natural processes that could be tested and understood. I imagined that "miracles", or instances of suspending the natural order, would be few and far between. And I imagined that defying the natural order would be impossible (example, a human amputee spontaneously waking up with a limb regrown, or a certified dead person walking around the next week with no other apparent reason than that someone prayed for it). I imagined that life would only come into existence through struggle, through survival of the fittest, through many species dying out mercilessly because they were not strong enough to make it, leaving only the most adaptable to breed and pass on their genes. I imagined that if an intelligent species eventually evolved, it would very likely turn to magic and mysticism to answer the questions it had. I imagined such a species would proclaim storms to be the work of the gods, and the seasons to be the work of the gods, and the sun and the moon to be the work of the gods. I imagined, as that species grew older, and matured, the gods it believed in would change and evolve, with many falling out of memory and others taking up fame and popularity, much like a free market economy. I imagined, as that species learned more of the world it inhabited, its gods would turn into, as Neil Degrasse Tyson so eloquently phrased it, "an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance". I imagined that believers in these gods would look for solid evidence for their deity, but find none, and thus be forced to turn to supernatural claims that could not be proven or disproven, and unreliable or biased anecdotal evidence to support the existence of such a being. 

I imagined a world just like ours.

I cannot say for a certainty that no god exists, as I do not know everything. But thus far in my life, I have looked at the world and drawn the conclusion that there is probably not a god, in the same way that there are probably no unicorns and elves.

Thanks for writing the huge response. So basically you feel that the human mind/brain made up God or gods, an afterlife, etc. for satisfaction, ignoring science and depending on supernatural claims, and wrote it down; creating the Bible? Seems like a point I'll have to look into from both sides. I do understand, though, that the Bible is not just "one book", but a collection of 66 books written by over 30 people over more than a thousand years. It's hard for me to discredit that unless it's just a blatant lie.


From what I gather from the beginning of your post, you feel that if God existed, surely we wouldn't be the only one favored, surely God wouldn't care about our actions, and surely space wouldn't be so "excessively huge". All of these seem to pertain to the nature of God; something that believers are inclined to trust due to other Church teachings. A lot of these replies, since the posters don't believe in God or Church teachings, seem to view the portrayal of God as demanding and excessive....while believers translate that into love.

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(November 23, 2016 at 3:21 pm)The Joker Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 3:17 pm)Balaco Wrote: Again, thanks for all the informative responses. I know atheism isn't something we choose to be or give a shot, and the reason I've been having atheistic thoughts is mainly because I never questioned my faith too much, and now I'm losing confidence in it. Obviously my conscience is conflicted here, as I'm so used to firmly believing in my faith. I'm worried that I'd be sinning and doubting God too much...but at the same time, if God isn't real, then it doesn't matter at all.

I'll see to responding to some posts.

You can't fade in believing in God, because faith is in the will. I suggest before you turn into one of those oxymorons, you think again.

I'm intent on trusting in God, hoping that if he exists, he's guiding me into the right direction. I need to be careful that my faith/beliefs aren't ultimately decided by temptations or how I want to live my life – but what I genuinely feel is accurate. I do feel in this case that I have to stay somewhat objective...otherwise I won't be able to rationally decide whether I consider God to be real.

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(November 23, 2016 at 3:40 pm)Alex K Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 3:17 pm)Balaco Wrote: Again, thanks for all the informative responses. I know atheism isn't something we choose to be or give a shot, and the reason I've been having atheistic thoughts is mainly because I never questioned my faith too much, and now I'm losing confidence in it. Obviously my conscience is conflicted here, as I'm so used to firmly believing in my faith. I'm worried that I'd be sinning and doubting God too much...but at the same time, if God isn't real, then it doesn't matter at all.

I'll see to responding to some posts.

Doubting God won't matter much, no, and many things that are considered sinning by the church won't matter either. But many other things that are considered as sinning still matter, and should be carefully evaluated for their impact on you and others.

Yeah, regardless of my religious stance I know atheists aren't stripped of all morals and judgment because they don't believe in God.

(November 23, 2016 at 2:25 pm)The Joker Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 2:14 pm)Astreja Wrote: How many gods are you actively avoiding by not believing in them?  Do you shy from Shiva? Run from Ra?  Flee from Freyja?

Because there is no God but YAWEH.

Why do you deny the Dagda?  Why do you profess that Poseidon is pretend and maintain that Mielikki is make-believe?

And stop cowering from Kali Ma behind the skirts of that foreskin-phobic Ugaritic brat Yahweh.  He can't save you from... Her.  Mwahahaha!

(November 23, 2016 at 3:45 pm)Balaco Wrote: I'm intent on trusting in God, hoping that if he exists, he's guiding me into the right direction. I need to be careful that my faith/beliefs aren't ultimately decided by temptations or how I want to live my life – but what I genuinely feel is accurate. I do feel in this case that I have to stay somewhat objective...otherwise I won't be able to rationally decide whether I consider God to be real.

Whether or not you remain a believer, Balaco, trust in the good you see in yourself and others and strive to live with integrity.  A good god will not fault you for it, and a world devoid of gods will shine all the brighter for the effort.

(November 23, 2016 at 3:45 pm)Balaco Wrote: Thanks for writing the huge response. So basically you feel that the human mind/brain made up God or gods, an afterlife, etc. for satisfaction, ignoring science and depending on supernatural claims, and wrote it down; creating the Bible? Seems like a point I'll have to look into from both sides. I do understand, though, that the Bible is not just "one book", but a collection of 66 books written by over 30 people over more than a thousand years. It's hard for me to discredit that unless it's just a blatant lie.


From what I gather from the beginning of your post, you feel that if God existed, surely we wouldn't be the only one favored, surely God wouldn't care about our actions, and surely space wouldn't be so "excessively huge". All of these seem to pertain to the nature of God; something that believers are inclined to trust due to other Church teachings. A lot of these replies, since the posters don't believe in God or Church teachings, seem to view the portrayal of God as demanding and excessive....while believers translate that into love.

I'm not so sure about everything in the Bible being "made up". I'll admit, I'm no expert on the book, but if I recall correctly, there are certain historical accuracies inside of it, some bits that may or may not reflect reality. But it was written a very long time ago. In a time period when humans believed all sorts of crazy myths and legends to be fact, a time when we were a lot more gullible, and susceptible to believing things we'd scoff at today. Not to mention the questionable authenticity of it, uncertainty about who wrote each book and when, uncertainty about translation. I believe some books in the bible have also been deleted, right? Some made the final cut and some did not. Additionally, if I have been correctly informed, a period of 40-50 years passed between Jesus's death and the writing of the Gospels - plenty of time for facts to be distorted, or remembered falsely, or exaggerated, or blurred by the passage of years. There are just so many variables to take into account, so much mystery surrounding that book and what actually happened. It's worthy of doubt.

I think it's entirely plausible that the individuals who wrote the Bible believed everything they wrote was true. But there is a difference between what we believe to be fact, and what actually is. Much like some people claim with all their heart and soul that they saw a UFO... and if you hooked them up to a lie detector, it would report they are telling the truth. That doesn't mean what they actually saw was in fact a UFO.

That's just how I look at it, though.

Balaco Wrote:Before I begin, I ask that you please avoid being hostile or anything. I'm a Roman Catholic, but I feel like many people of faith immediately jump to degrading atheists as people, rather than trying to understand their mindset. I'm heavily confused right now, and am asking both Catholic and atheist sites for their mindsets. Obviously, Catholics are going to defend Catholicism, while atheists are going to defend atheism. I ask that you please be civil about it, as this could be life-changing for me.

Welcome, Balaco. I hope you like this forum and make many interesting contributions. I appreciate you being willing to try to understand our mindset rather than presuming you already understand it. For starters, I don't think many of us really care whether you become an atheist or not, we have these talks because they're interesting, not because we're seriously interested in deconverting you. If we were, we would go to a non-atheist forum to try to persuade the non-heathens.

Balaco Wrote:I've been questioning how to improve in my Roman Catholic faith lately...but this morning I came to the realization that I never really questioned my faith itself. I was lightly raised Catholic and recently took it upon myself to grow closer to God. Now, for probably the first time in my life, I feel like I'm genuinely considering atheism as a possibility.

From what I understand, atheists do not accept the possibility of a supernatural being, and restrict themselves to our "natural" human thinking.

I accept the possibility of a supernatural being. I just don't think one is very likely.

Balaco Wrote:Previously I thought that atheists are simply conditioned by society to the point where they are unable to "rationally" believe in a supernatural being...God doesn't allow us universally undeniable proof of his existence as a test of faith.

In the USA, society tries to condition us to the Christian point of view, for the most part. The majority of us were raised to be Christians.

Balaco Wrote:Now, though, I feel like it's impossible to tell whether that mindset is correct, or whether atheists are correct in their focusing on our natural human mindsets. I do feel like I've felt something while praying throughout the past.

I did too. I eventually came to realize that what I felt was originating in my own head.

Balaco Wrote:The other night, for example, I was planning on praying for about fifteen minutes, but felt oddly calm and ended up taking about an hour. Now I feel like that could have just been because I was comfortable, and my mind was "making things up" as I was more convinced in my faith.

That could be it.

Balaco Wrote:Atheists, why do you reject the idea of God, and why should I? I know that your answers will include "there's no evidence" and all that, but please try to explain.

Most of us don't actually reject the idea of God. God certainly exists as an idea. And most of us don't reject the possibility that God is real either, though the estimate of the probability depends on which version of God you're proposing. Atheists who are utterly certain that no possible version of God could really exist are called 'strong atheists' or 'gnostic atheists' around here. Those who just aren't convinced by the reasons believers have given are 'weak' or 'agnostic' atheists. I'm a 'person without God or gods', not a 'person convinced there is no God (or gods). As for why should you (be an atheist), it's not a should or shouldn't. Either you are convinced God is real or you are not. You should be a critical thinker and hold reasonable standards for what you consider acceptable evidence, and see where that takes you if you apply it consistently.

Tazzycorn Wrote:Why should you reject catholic theology? Because, when looked at objectively and dispassionately, you'll realise that the god you've been taught to believe in is both logically and physically impossible.

Not alone does your got not exist, there is no possibility of him existing.

I'm commenting to Belaco but jumping off Tazzycorn's comment. Tazzycorn may be a gnostic/strong atheist, but all we know from the statement is that it's gnostic/strong atheism in regard to a particular version of God. Being sure Vishnu isn't real isn't the same as being sure that, say, the deist version of God isn't real.

I'm a gnostic atheist towards the God described in the Bible, taken literally. There's no God that flooded the earth or made the sun stand still in the sky or made the universe and the earth in six literal days; because those things didn't happen. I also don't believe in the God of theodicy because it has contradictory attributes (an omnipotent God can do anything, and omniscient God can only do what it has foreseen it will do). The deist God and Vishnu and Artemis don't contain necessary contradictions, so I can't say they're impossible; just that there's very little good reason to think any of them are real; so I'm an agnostic atheist towards them.

Balaco Wrote:Again, thanks for all the informative responses. I know atheism isn't something we choose to be or give a shot, and the reason I've been having atheistic thoughts is mainly because I never questioned my faith too much, and now I'm losing confidence in it. Obviously my conscience is conflicted here, as I'm so used to firmly believing in my faith. I'm worried that I'd be sinning and doubting God too much...but at the same time, if God isn't real, then it doesn't matter at all.

I'll see to responding to some posts.

Well, it doesn't matter based on God's feelings if he is imaginary. It still matters based on your own feelings and the feelings of those around you. Atheism wouldn't be much of an excuse to be self-destructive or hurtful to or exploitive of others, for example. Everyone without brain impairment has a conscience, regardless of which religion they follow or whether they don't follow any.

If you stop believing in God, you'll have to figure out what's a 'mere sin'...not wrong in itself or because of the harm it causes, but just something that you've been told displeases the deity you were raised to believe in...or if it really has bad consequences or undesirable consequences in this life.

Moderate drinking (or other legal vice), probably okay. Excessive drinking, probably not okay.

If you're concerned about your behavior if you deconvert, you might want to check humanist moral philosophy.

(November 23, 2016 at 3:21 pm)The Joker Wrote: You can't fade in believing in God, because faith is in the will.

So he won't find faith until his favorite rich uncle dies?

(November 23, 2016 at 5:13 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 3:21 pm)The Joker Wrote: You can't fade in believing in God, because faith is in the will.

So he won't find faith until his favorite rich uncle dies?

So you mean you have 3 stars spinning around your head?