(November 25, 2016 at 6:34 am)robvalue Wrote: It's also had to be extremely "flexible" to allow for people to be nice and less bigoted, contrary to the texts. So it's had to pretend to be one thing, while also being the other.

In other words, a self-serving, man-made bullshit story that can be used simultaneously by shepherds, sheep, and wolves.

(November 25, 2016 at 5:16 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(November 24, 2016 at 9:23 pm)Balaco Wrote: On another quick note, why do you guys suppose Christianity has grown so complex? I've been sent dozens of videos that have to total to at least 12 hours, and I'm sure there's countless more across the Internet.

One of these is a 2.5 hour video on how magicians prove the existence of demons. Haven't looked too much into it but it seems like all the tricks it showed have explanations over the Internet.

Christianity is so complex because it is a political beast. For a long time it was both a major european state (in the guise of the papal states), and a tool used by other major states to pacify populations and quell discontent among their populaces (one of the main reasons why France and Germany were so willing to allow so many of their men off despite it weakening their military base so much was because most of that military power was used in a way which hurt the central government).

No, not just Christianity, but ALL RELIGIONS past and present. Our species needlessly creates these clubs and fantastic claims because that is easier than the real hard work of actually figuring out what science does.

YES Christianity IS complex, but so is Islam and Jewish and Hindu and Buddhism. Our species makes up these artificial clubs as a way of creating social order to make excuses as to getting at resources. There is no such thing, nor has ever been such a thing, as a perfectly unifying religion. Every umbrella label competes against other labels as to claim morality. Every label has sub sects that don't agree as to whom to follow or how to interpret the umbrella heros or writings.

YES it is complex, and needlessly so. Instead what humans SHOULD consider, is that our morality is in us, in our evolution. It is why we can observe our pets comfort us and or protect us. It is why we know elephants mourn the deaths of family. There is not one nation, friend or foe alike, that does not have hospitals or prisons.

(November 24, 2016 at 8:55 pm)Balaco Wrote: Yeah, I'm not too sure what to think on it. If God is real, then it's an actual spiritual test, but it also seems like it could just be an argument used to preserve the faith. 

Here's a little logical thought to consider (theists seem to hate logic). There are several thousand different religious faiths out there that one could choose to follow. But if you break it down into the big three or four broad religions, and then create a world map that shows how common each is by country, it quickly becomes apparent that where you were born has a lot to do with what religion you follow. 

Then we look at how most of those religions claim their god is the one true god and all others are false. So therefore what your good book and your good pastor are telling you is that you'd better get down on your knees and thank your lord and savior that you were born wherever you were born. Because if you were born on the other side of the planet, you'd be fucked and doomed to burn in hell for all of eternity because you'd very likely be worshipping the wrong god.

So now we're down to god created the universe and everything in it. And in that universe with those billions of stars and planets he created earth. And on earth he created both Montana and Mongolia. And then God decided that all those who were born in Montana would go to heaven for following the one true religion and all those that were born in Mongolia would burn in eternal hell fire for following the wrong religion. Sure seems like the act of an all-loving god to me.

Maybe one burning bush was as much as Jehovah could muster. Maybe it is harder to manifest anything in the natural world when you have no substance yourself. So that one burning bush just happened to take off in the middle east. Now God needs us to keep the flame going. (Doesn't mean He is getting help from me of course.)

I was raised fundamentalist protestant.  I currently play the organ for some Catholic Masses.  Why should you become an atheist?   How would I know?

It doesn't seem to be a conscious choice for most of us.  For me, it was the growing awareness that the things I had been taught, and the message from the pulpit, just didn't make any sense.  That's really it.  You will either: 1) Decide that you are comfortable in your beliefs and decide not to question them; 2) Question your beliefs and take a really hard look, through knowledge of history and science, and have to face some paradoxes and unanswerable questions.

You will choose for yourself, as we have.  It is not my place to try and "convert" you from your current position.

(November 25, 2016 at 9:57 am)Brian37 Wrote: Our species makes up these artificial clubs as a way of creating social order to make excuses as to getting at resources.

As a social species, it's natural for us to form closed groups and use all kinds of mental biases to inflate the importance and value of our own group versus any other. Religion is a pretty sophisticated way of doing that, in that it involves the creation of the ultimate alpha male that the group follows even if they cannot interact with him in any way. It's also a very ugly way of doing that, in that it makes it much easier to excuse --and even encourage-- the worst kinds of behavior. Yahweh of the OT doesn't even pretend that he's offering peace to the world; he bloodies his knuckles and goads his followers into massacring groups of people and sometimes even their livestock. There is nothing necessary about what he does. It's pure bloodlust.

Evolution is an imperfect system that often involves conflict between species and even within a species. Not the most ideal way to promote the continued survival of any particular species, as evidenced by the high rates of extinction that life on Earth experiences. A perfect system would involve a high level of cooperation both within a species and between all species so that the efforts to maintain balance did not require as much violent aggression and killing as our planet experiences. Our world doesn't point to the existence of God. Heck, neither do our gods.

From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

(November 25, 2016 at 1:59 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 25, 2016 at 9:57 am)Brian37 Wrote: Our species makes up these artificial clubs as a way of creating social order to make excuses as to getting at resources.

As a social species, it's natural for us to form closed groups and use all kinds of mental biases to inflate the importance and value of our own group versus any other.  Religion is a pretty sophisticated way of doing that, in that it involves the creation of the ultimate alpha male that the group follows even if they cannot interact with him in any way.  It's also a very ugly way of doing that, in that it makes it much easier to excuse --and even encourage-- the worst kinds of behavior.  Yahweh of the OT doesn't even pretend that he's offering peace to the world; he bloodies his knuckles and goads his followers into massacring groups of people and sometimes even their livestock.  There is nothing necessary about what he does.  It's pure bloodlust.

Evolution is an imperfect system that often involves conflict between species and even within a species.  Not the most ideal way to promote the continued survival of any particular species, as evidenced by the high rates of extinction that life on Earth experiences.  A perfect system would involve a high level of cooperation both within a species and between all species so that the efforts to maintain balance did not require as much violent aggression and killing as our planet experiences.  Our world doesn't point to the existence of God.  Heck, neither do our gods.

No, religion is NOT "sophisticated" People do create complex structures and religion can be complex and political, yes, but that still does not change the fact it is born out of the ignorance of antiquity. That is where that "bloodlust" is born from. Even the polytheism of antiquity worldwide, humans had much shorter lifespans and with the advent of cities that evolutionary cooperation made you dependent on the ruling family and or ruling class. Those at the top unfortunately mistook their success as coming from a divine place, not even the earliest myths of Buddhism escape these motifs.

Our problem today as a species is that we are still using old antiquated ideas of tribalism on a planet where there is no more room to expand or conquer each other.

I do agree that evolution is not perfect one bit which makes the idea of a god being involved even that much more absurd to claim.

Any human with any shred of empathy should not value the god character in the OT/Bible/Quran. But if all we can get is for more to skip over the bloody tribal parts and focus on the stories of empathy that is far better certainly.

(November 25, 2016 at 5:52 pm)Balaco Wrote: From what I'm gathering, you guys generally view religion as a product of the mind, an excuse for hope or political power, etc. that ignores logic and bends accordingly.

What are your thoughts on miracles, whether large-scale ones like the events of Fatima, or "personal" miracles like those listed on sites like these, http://www1.cbn.com/700club/episodes/all...ng-stories ....Lies? Coincidences? Exaggerations?

Living in Portugal, having read the original description in the papers, and having visited Fatima a few times... I can tell you it's a bunch of hogwash.