Problem is I've been told many times that it's impossible to do it wrong so I need not worry whether I'm doing it right or wrong or not.

But if no mistakes can be made then it's not a skill, lol.

So I don't understand. If it's a skill there must be a way to do it wrong.

It's not that there isn't a method to it. It's that you're supposed to be removing yourself from judgment. Mindfulness is a non-judgmental head space. It's observing what is actually happening without thinking of it in terms of good or bad, so yeah, saying you're doing it "wrong" is kind of doing it wrong. lol That's why there is no "wrong" way to do it. You know? Another part of it is that meditation is showing up for yourself, so just sitting there doing it is doing it right.

Let me put this in terms of a mindfulness session:

You're sitting and all of a sudden a negative thought flies through your head. Having achieved mindful awareness, you would be able to observe this thought without judgment, so you wouldn't say "fuck, I'm doing this wrong because I had a negative thought." You would ideally either think nothing of it or think something like, "Oh, look. A thought." and move on with your practice. Meditation is NOT about clearing your mind. It's about sitting apart from the shit that floats through it. It's hard and you will "do it wrong" every time you sit. You make corrections, look for ways to observe non-judgmentally and move on. This is practice so when the shit hits the fan in real life, you are better at going "Oh, look. A thought."

Another example:

Say I'm walking along a trail and I come across muddy sludge. I can either choose to radically accept the muddy sludge by simply acknowledging its existence and finding a way around/away from the sludge without feeling bad or good about it or I can think, "Oh, great. There's fucking gross sludge in my path. Isn't that just like life? This sucks. Fuck this sludge. Fuck this walk. Fuck my day." Instead of labeling these things and increasing our suffering through negativity, we're better off just realizing the mud simple is. There is nothing good or bad about it. It's just mud that's there. Not liking it will change nothing except your mood.

Wow, beautifully put

(November 28, 2016 at 11:48 am)Shell B Wrote: It's not that there isn't a method to it. It's that you're supposed to be removing yourself from judgment. Mindfulness is a non-judgmental head space. It's observing what is actually happening without thinking of it in terms of good or bad, so yeah, saying you're doing it "wrong" is kind of doing it wrong. lol That's why there is no "wrong" way to do it. You know? Another part of it is that meditation is showing up for yourself, so just sitting there doing it is doing it right.

Let me put this in terms of a mindfulness session:

You're sitting and all of a sudden a negative thought flies through your head. Having achieved mindful awareness, you would be able to observe this thought without judgment, so you wouldn't say "fuck, I'm doing this wrong because I had a negative thought." You would ideally either think nothing of it or think something like, "Oh, look. A thought." and move on with your practice. Meditation is NOT about clearing your mind. It's about sitting apart from the shit that floats through it. It's hard and you will "do it wrong" every time you sit. You make corrections, look for ways to observe non-judgmentally and move on. This is practice so when the shit hits the fan in real life, you are better at going "Oh, look. A thought."

Another example:

Say I'm walking along a trail and I come across muddy sludge. I can either choose to radically accept the muddy sludge by simply acknowledging its existence and finding a way around/away from the sludge without feeling bad or good about it or I can think, "Oh, great. There's fucking gross sludge in my path. Isn't that just like life? This sucks. Fuck this sludge. Fuck this walk. Fuck my day." Instead of labeling these things and increasing our suffering through negativity, we're better off just realizing the mud simple is. There is nothing good or bad about it. It's just mud that's there. Not liking it will change nothing except your mood.

That sounds like what I already do a lot and I never formally practiced or learned about meditation, except from the little I heard about it from Sam Harris. I'm sure Ham is familiar with that as well.

Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic.

I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

I don't think there's anything to practice. We can't control our minds. When we think we control them we're mistaken. And I know mindfulness is not about controlling our thoughts but instead about observing them but observing automatic thoughts is just observing automatic thoughts. We're wrong to ever take credit for any of our thoughts because there is no locus of control.

---

(November 28, 2016 at 11:53 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(November 28, 2016 at 11:48 am)Shell B Wrote: It's not that there isn't a method to it. It's that you're supposed to be removing yourself from judgment. Mindfulness is a non-judgmental head space. It's observing what is actually happening without thinking of it in terms of good or bad, so yeah, saying you're doing it "wrong" is kind of doing it wrong. lol That's why there is no "wrong" way to do it. You know? Another part of it is that meditation is showing up for yourself, so just sitting there doing it is doing it right.

Let me put this in terms of a mindfulness session:

You're sitting and all of a sudden a negative thought flies through your head. Having achieved mindful awareness, you would be able to observe this thought without judgment, so you wouldn't say "fuck, I'm doing this wrong because I had a negative thought." You would ideally either think nothing of it or think something like, "Oh, look. A thought." and move on with your practice. Meditation is NOT about clearing your mind. It's about sitting apart from the shit that floats through it. It's hard and you will "do it wrong" every time you sit. You make corrections, look for ways to observe non-judgmentally and move on. This is practice so when the shit hits the fan in real life, you are better at going "Oh, look. A thought."

Another example:

Say I'm walking along a trail and I come across muddy sludge. I can either choose to radically accept the muddy sludge by simply acknowledging its existence and finding a way around/away from the sludge without feeling bad or good about it or I can think, "Oh, great. There's fucking gross sludge in my path. Isn't that just like life? This sucks. Fuck this sludge. Fuck this walk. Fuck my day." Instead of labeling these things and increasing our suffering through negativity, we're better off just realizing the mud simple is. There is nothing good or bad about it. It's just mud that's there. Not liking it will change nothing except your mood.

That sounds like what I already do a lot and I never formally practiced or learned about meditation, except from the little I heard about it from Sam Harris. I'm sure Ham is familiar with that as well.

Yes. And he doesn't believe we can control our thoughts either.

I don't personally see how it's a skill that can be learned.

Unless mindfulness is the awareness that we don't control our thoughts and we're merely observers of them. But in that case I'm already successfully engaged in mindfulness all the time because I don't even observe the so-called illusion of free will. There's no illusion there, people just think there is. It's a delusion and an incoherent concept rather than an illusion.

Of course I'm talking about ultimate free will and ultimate moral responsibility. Not any of that relabelling uncoerced choices with "free will" side-stepping compatabilist shit.

So that might be why I am confused. Because mindfulness is my default state, lol.

---

@ Shell B

So to take your muddy puddle analogy... either those negative thoughts about the puddle come or they don't, and there is nothing we can do to prevent them coming.

And we either observe them when they come or we don't. And there's nothing we can do to force ourselves to observe them.

Personally I think we automatically believe all our automatic thoughts and our own automatic narrative 100% of the time. It's only our deliberate thoughts that we don't necessarily believe, and we can use them to observe the automatic thoughts that we do believe and we can then realize they're false. But either we do that or we don't. Ultimately our deliberate thoughts are as automatic as any other. So I should say effortful or purposeful thoughts perhaps. They're the thoughts we think on purpose. So we can use our purposeful thoughts to observe our automatic thoughts if and only if the idea for us to do so occurs to us. But we have zero control over what occurs to us.

And of course every time we have a purposeful thought about our own thinking... purposeful thinking is effortful and strained. It's only worth the mental tension if what we observe is making us even more miserable. So we can catch ourselves when we really need to. But we don't get to choose when the idea for us to catch ourselves occurs to us.

It could be a habit we could get better at. But thinking about my own thinking is a habit I used to have that made me miserable, because, like I said, purposeful thoughts cause tension. I'd rather be less aware than more aware before it overdrives my O.C.D.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic.

Nope. Consciously thinking something is certainly not the opposite of mindfulness. Mindfulness is being aware of the present moment at its basest form. There is nothing in its definition about not purposely thinking something.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Intervening or not intervening is not the opposite of mindfulness. Judging the thoughts as negative or even being judgmental of the negativity is.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

Yes, being aware of judgments is just being aware of them. Practice makes perfect.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

Sometimes it is luck. Sometimes it is practice.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't think there's anything to practice.

Tell that to the literally billions of people who do practice or have practiced mindfulness meditation.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: We can't control our minds. When we think we control them we're mistaken.

You're not controlling your mind. You're learning to control your reactions to the natural nuances of your mind. Suffering doesn't come from negative thoughts. It comes from how we react to them.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: And I know mindfulness is not about controlling our thoughts but instead about observing them but observing automatic thoughts is just observing automatic thoughts. We're wrong to ever take credit for any of our thoughts because there is no locus of control.

While you can certainly purposely think things and take credit for them, there are definitely automatic thoughts as well. No one who actually understands and practices mindfulness would say trying to control those has anything to do with it. It's more letting go of control.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Yes. And he doesn't believe we can control our thoughts either.

Nor do I.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't personally see how it's a skill that can be learned.

You practice observing thoughts, smells, events, etc. without judgment. It doesn't always work, but you practice and one day you'll notice it's cold outside without thinking how much it sucks or you think how much it sucks without thinking how miserable your thoughts are. Or you think all the "bad" things, but you don't react to it. You don't sigh, piss and moan or go on a tangent. You just grab your shovel and don't let that shit affect how you behave.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So to take your muddy puddle analogy... either those negative thoughts about the puddle come or they don't, and there is nothing we can do to prevent them coming.

I think I've covered this above.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: And we either observe them when they come or we don't. And there's nothing we can do to force ourselves to observe them.

That's not true. I do it all the time. I practice observing my thoughts and not reacting to them.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Personally I think we automatically believe all our automatic thoughts and our own automatic narrative 100% of the time.

Then that will be true for you. I often believe my automatic thoughts too, but I have Pure-OCD, so that kind of comes with the territory.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic unless it's strained.

I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

Well for arguments sake say you were to count your breaths in meditation, the ideal situation would be to have never lost count because you only lose count when you get too drawn into a distraction such as a train of thought. So the ideal would be to have maintained awareness of your breath for the whole thing without getting sucked in to the passing thoughts, and 'clinging/attaching' to them. In practice it's not that easy and your mind will wander... you will lose count figuratively or literally if you actually are counting... but when that happens you just bring your focus back to your breath when you snap out of the train of thought. To dwell on that as the failure would be the only real failure, because that's getting dragged into another train of thought, but if you just carry on regardless of that interruption, then that's where the 'success' lies. So as long as you keep bringing your attention back to your breath no matter how many times you get sucked in to a distraction, then you can't 'fail'. And as with any skill, practice makes perfect so the more you meditate the better you get at it... the less times you'll 'lose count' because it develops your concentration and ability to let go... so things that once sucked you in, no longer do. That's why it's not really helpful to think of it in terms of success and failure... everyone's mind wanders... everyone loses count... but if you just carry on regardless of that, then the more you practice, the less that will happen in the future.

(November 28, 2016 at 12:25 pm)Shell B Wrote: Nope. Consciously thinking something is certainly not the opposite of mindfulness. Mindfulness is being aware of the present moment at its basest form. There is nothing in its definition about not purposely thinking something.

Consciously purposely thinking thoughts rather than observing thoughts is the opposite of mindfulness.

When I'm thinking a thought, I'm supposed to observe it consciously rather than consciously think something else.

If I'm thinking a negative thought... viewing that thought non-judgementally is mindfulness. Consciously thinking in addition to that "Oh, I'm having a negative thought" is not mindfulness. We don't have to consciously additonally think that we're observing a thought consciously in order to observe it consciously.

That's all I meant. That conscious deliberate thinking isn't observing what we're already thinking mindfully.

Basically: Mindfully being aware of our automatic thoughts has to be as automatic as those thoughts themselves.

Quote:Intervening or not intervening is not the opposite of mindfulness. Judging the thoughts as negative or even being judgmental of the negativity is.

The negative thought itself is the judgement. We don't have thoughts and then judge whether they're good or bad... we have thoughts that are instrisically judgemental. We have negative and positive thoughts.

When we observe our thoughts consciously, their judgement of being positive or negative disappears. And I understand that that is mindfulness. But it ruins positive thoughts as much as it removes the negativity in negative thoughts.

And does it always work? Is it not possible to observe a judgemental thought whilst it still remains judgemental?

I'm sure there are many times when I have been aware of my negative and positive thoughts and they've still remained negative and positive.

So, I think it's illusory. I think the reason why we often think being aware of our judgements has changed our judgements is simply because our awareness itself is a change in our thinking so the judgement has changed because the thought has changed.

And above all, whether it occurs to us to observe our thoughts or not is entirely beyond our control.

Quote:Yes, being aware of judgments is just being aware of them. Practice makes perfect.

Why would I want to be aware of my judgements if it didn't achieve anything? If all it is is me being aware of them, it doesn't make them any less judgemental.

Quote:Sometimes it is luck. Sometimes it is practice.

In my experience being aware of my thoughts is a mixed bag. I only want to be aware of them when they're bad. But that happens automatically and I'm not sure the being aware of them has any effect at all. I think it just coincidences with my realization that I'm thinking negatively.

Quote:Tell that to the literally billions of people who do practice or have practiced mindfulness meditation.

Or think they have.

Does being aware of our judgements actually have any effect or is it a common illusion that makes mindfulness popular?

I mean, let's grant the premise that being aware of our judgements helps them disappear. There are still two problems:

1. Whether it occurs to us for us to observe our judgements or not is completely beyond our control
2. It works both ways. We have both judgements that make us miserable and judgements that uplift us. Observing our judgements takes away our good feelings as much as our bad.

Quote:You're not controlling your mind. You're learning to control your reactions to the natural nuances of your mind. Suffering doesn't come from negative thoughts. It comes from how we react to them.

A negative judgement creates a negative feeling. A negative thought creates a negative feeling. When we observe a negative judgement it can become a neutral judgement and no longer a negative feeling.

If we can't control our mind then we can't control our reactions to the natural nuances of our mind. The 'we' that supposedly does the controlling is our mind.

A negative thought is a thought that makes us suffer. I know what you're trying to say though. When we react negatively to our thoughts it makes us suffer. I'm saying that our reaction is just another thought that we can't control.

Quote:While you can certainly purposely think things and take credit for them, there are definitely automatic thoughts as well. No one who actually understands and practices mindfulness would say trying to control those has anything to do with it. It's more letting go of control.

Or rather, letting ago the effortful attempt to control. We have no control to let go of. I've known a while now that controlling my thoughts is a futile exercise. I'm like a sail boat. My mind drifts. Either I catch myself or I don't. Either I observe my judgements or I don't. It's been this way since I was born. The only difference is that up until a few years ago I believed I controlled my mind more and my mind strained in attempting to control itself when it could not.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Yes. And he doesn't believe we can control our thoughts either.

Shell B Wrote:Nor do I.

Good

Quote:You practice observing thoughts, smells, events, etc. without judgment.

But those thoughts themselves are judgements. When I appear to be observing the judgements without judgement that's just me changing from observing an internal or external experience judgementally to observing an internal or external experience non-judgementally. If it happens it happens.

I can practice it in the sense that I can make it into a habit.... but it won't prevent judgements from coming. Thinking non-judgemental thoughts more often won't make me have judgemental thoughts any less. When they come they come. If I think there's anything I can do about it then that only makes my O.C.D. intensify in rebellion.

I don't think it actually achieves anything but intensify my O.C.D. further. I feel like there is a such thing as being too mindful. I think ignoring my thoughts causes me a great deal more pleasure and happiness than the years I spent paying attention to them.

Quote: It doesn't always work, but you practice and one day you'll notice it's cold outside without thinking how much it sucks or you think how much it sucks without thinking how miserable your thoughts are.

To me that's just the fact that sometimes we have a negative response, sometimes we have a positive response and sometimes we have a neutral response.

Quote: Or you think all the "bad" things, but you don't react to it. You don't sigh, piss and moan or go on a tangent. You just grab your shovel and don't let that shit affect how you behave.

Well how I express myself on the outside is different to how I feel on the inside.

Bad thoughts aren't bad thoughts unless they feel bad. If we seem to observe a bad thought and it doesn't feel bad then we're not observing a bad thought.

Quote:That's not true. I do it all the time. I practice observing my thoughts and not reacting to them.

Well it certainly seems that way to a lot of people. I'd say that's just observing a non-negative thought without reacting with a negative thought.

Our thoughts can make us feel good, bad or nothing at all. We can react to all three kinds with more thoughts that can make us feel good, bad or nothing at all.

Our thoughts are something that happen to us.

Quote:Then that will be true for you. I often believe my automatic thoughts too, but I have Pure-OCD, so that kind of comes with the territory.

All my compulsions are mental too. Ignoring my thoughts by distracting myself from them helps their frequency and intensity decrease. Being mindful of them just gives them attention and makes them grow more.

The less aware and mindful I am... the more carried away with negative emotions I can get... but it also makes me get more carried away with positive emotions. And in my experience I was far far more miserable when I didn't allow myself to get carried away. I felt empty for years.

I only want to be mindful when I am getting carried away with negative emotions. But that happens automatically and I can't determine when that will occur to me or not.

I might experiment with being aware of my thoughts more often. But it does almost immediately make me miserable through a lack of joy.

I wish I could find something in the whole thing. I tried for years. I don't see how observing judgements has any effect. My reactions to those judgements are just more judgements. The whole thing seems like trying to put the cart before the horse.

---

(November 28, 2016 at 12:26 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Oh I absolutely know what mindfulness is... I just think that everyone is just lucky when they do it right. I think that the only way for it to be a skill is for us to consciously think something but that's the opposite of mindfulness. Thinking is purely automatic unless it's strained.

I get lost in a negative train of thought... I can notice that... but I can't stop the negative train merely by observing it. Either as I observe it the negative thoughts stop or they don't. And if I intervene with a conscious thought that's not mindfulness.

Mindfulness is indeed, observing thoughts without judgement. But that either happens or it doesn't. Being aware of my judgements is just being aware of them.

TL;DR: we either unluckily observe a negative train of thought without judgement and it continues or we get lucky and it ends.

Well for arguments sake say you were to count your breaths in meditation, the ideal situation would be to have never lost count because you only lose count when you get too drawn into a distraction such as a train of thought. So the ideal would be to have maintained awareness of your breath for the whole thing without getting sucked in to the passing thoughts, and 'clinging/attaching' to them. In practice it's not that easy and your mind will wander... you will lose count figuratively or literally if you actually are counting... but when that happens you just bring your focus back to your breath when you snap out of the train of thought. To dwell on that as the failure would be the only real failure, because that's getting dragged into another train of thought, but if you just carry on regardless of that interruption, then that's where the 'success' lies. So as long as you keep bringing your attention back to your breath no matter how many times you get sucked in to a distraction, then you can't 'fail'. And as with any skill, practice makes perfect so the more you meditate the better you get at it... the less times you'll 'lose count' because it develops your concentration and ability to let go... so things that once sucked you in, no longer do. That's why it's not really helpful to think of it in terms of success and failure... everyone's mind wanders... everyone loses count... but if you just carry on regardless of that, then the more you practice, the less that will happen in the future.

I think being more mindful is a habit I can develop that has both good and bad aspects (Or at least the illusion of it. I'm not sure being aware of one's thoughts actually has any effect on them). In my own experience my positive emotions outweigh my bad ones so allowing myself to wander and get carried away brings me more good than bad overall. I think one of the reasons I was depressed for so many years was I was too self-aware, lol. Being less mindful, ironically, seems to have helped me more than anything.

---

I mean, I think even supposedly 'not getting carried away with our thoughts' is itself a form of getting carried away with them. When we decide to meditate that's because we've had a train of thought that has carried us into that decision to do that.

So, I guess, I could develop a very strong habit whereby I'm able to habitually be aware of myself at a very focused degree without getting distracted by other thoughts. I'm not sure that's a good thing. I think it's a habit we can break as much as a habit we can make. I think I had the habit of not letting myself get carried away for years. I'd thought the same thoughts over and over and they wouldn't drift. I was very very mindful of them all. And it was an absolute nightmare. The lack of positivity felt like negativity. I've never felt a deeper depression than emptiness. No worse feeling than a feeling of despair at the fact that I couldn't feel anything besides that despair at feeling nothing else.

It's thanks to our mind drifting that we have creativity.

To always let them drift while observing them? I think that would cause us more self-consciousness and anxiety than anything.

---

Right I'm going out for a walk to the shops, it's quite a way.

While I'm doing so I'll practice being mindful of my thoughts. I think it's the perfect time because my thoughts drift more than ever when I'm walking. I am not sure it actually achieves what people think it does. It's fun to observe my thoughts sometimes but in my experience the very act of observing them kills their flow.

Anyways, I'm determined to try and see what people are talking about. I have spent years trying to understand.

I feel like I don't view my mind the way most people do. I think not experiencing the illusion of free will might be something to do with it.

I actually really like it when my thoughts drift most of the time. I call it daydreaming. It's not all bad. Being aware of the dream kind of spoils it.

Back later.

(November 28, 2016 at 1:09 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Consciously purposely thinking thoughts rather than observing thoughts is the opposite of mindfulness.

I think this is where you are getting hung up. It is not the opposite of mindfulness. Mindlessness would be, by definition, the opposite. Consciously thinking, "That leaf is green." is mindfulness. Consciously thinking, "I just had a thought." is mindfulness. I don't know where you got this idea that mindfulness means not thinking on purpose, but it's wrong.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Basically: Mindfully being aware of our automatic thoughts has to be as automatic as those thoughts themselves.

No way, Jose. You're making it harder than it is. Try less.

Quote:The negative thought itself is the judgement.

Is not. It's just a thought. That it came automatically means it has no judgment at all. It's just there, negative or positive.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: And does it always work?

Of course not.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I'm sure there are many times when I have been aware of my negative and positive thoughts and they've still remained negative and positive.

Mindfulness isn't trying to change your thought from negative to positive or even negative to neutral. You're hung up on these ideas that have nothing to do with the practice.

Quote:Why would I want to be aware of my judgements if it didn't achieve anything? If all it is is me being aware of them, it doesn't make them any less judgemental.

You brought up being aware of your judgments. If you don't want to be aware of them, then don't be. Pay attention to the way the floor feels beneath your butt or the feeling of your breath coming in and out of your body instead.

Quote:Or think they have.

That's a little derisive. Just because you haven't figured it out (or have attributed too many things to mindfulness that aren't mindfulness) doesn't mean that people haven't had success with it.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Does being aware of our judgements actually have any effect or is it a common illusion that makes mindfulness popular?

It does have an effect, if you learn not to react to it. If you think having judgments makes it a failure, you'll never get anywhere. If you think it's an "illusion," then you obviously haven't gotten anywhere with it. It's not some complicated thing. It's simply paying attention in a different way. It won't cure your depression. It won't cure your anxiety. It won't make you smarter, healthier, stronger or anything like that. If that's what you seek, you're already "doing it wrong." You're attached to having it make you feel better. Try reading Buddha's Brain. It's about the neuroscience behind mindfulness meditation. It's a good read.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I mean, let's grant the premise that being aware of our judgements helps them disappear. There are still two problems:

That's not the premise. It's not the premise at all, so

Quote:If we can't control our mind then we can't control our reactions to the natural nuances of our mind. The 'we' that supposedly does the controlling is our mind.

Let me break it down for you. You can't control automatic thoughts, but not all of your thoughts are automatic. You can learn to redirect your thoughts. It doesn't work all the time because people aren't perfect.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Or rather, letting ago the effortful attempt to control. We have no control to let go of. I've known a while now that controlling my thoughts is a futile exercise. I'm like a sail boat. My mind drifts. Either I catch myself or I don't. Either I observe my judgements or I don't. It's been this way since I was born. The only difference is that up until a few years ago I believed I controlled my mind more and my mind strained in attempting to control itself when it could not.

You're right. You can't control everything you think. Mindfulness doesn't attempt to do that.

Quote:But those thoughts themselves are judgements. When I appear to be observing the judgements without judgement that's just me changing from observing an internal or external experience judgementally to observing an internal or external experience non-judgementally.

Yeah. Do that.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I can practice it in the sense that I can make it into a habit.... but it won't prevent judgements from coming.

That's not the point. People who practice mindfulness know that it won't prevent negative thoughts.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't think it actually achieves anything but intensify my O.C.D. further. I feel like there is a such thing as being too mindful. I think ignoring my thoughts causes me a great deal more pleasure and happiness than the years I spent paying attention to them.

You're focusing way too much on thoughts. A common mindfulness practice is paying attention to the sensations when you're eating. Another is to hold an ice cube. No one is trying to analyze their thoughts and pay a ton of attention to them. The idea is to kind of wave at them mentally as they go by.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: To me that's just the fact that sometimes we have a negative response, sometimes we have a positive response and sometimes we have a neutral response.

Or sometimes you have a negative response and you don't get caught up in it because you've learned not to.

Quote:Well it certainly seems that way to a lot of people. I'd say that's just observing a non-negative thought without reacting with a negative thought.

You can think whatever you want.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: All my compulsions are mental too. Ignoring my thoughts by distracting myself from them helps their frequency and intensity decrease. Being mindful of them just gives them attention and makes them grow more.

It's important that you be diagnosed before you attribute things to compulsions. If I remember correctly, you haven't been formally diagnosed. A ton of depression and general anxiety symptoms mimic OCD. The right medication could certainly work far more than mindfulness. Again, just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it doesn't actually work for other people. Dismissing it as hokum because you haven't figured it out isn't fair.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I might experiment with being aware of my thoughts more often. But it does almost immediately make me miserable through a lack of joy.

Try being more aware of a puppy or something. It's less complicated.

(November 28, 2016 at 11:57 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I think being more mindful is a habit I can develop that has both good and bad aspects (Or at least the illusion of it. I'm not sure being aware of one's thoughts actually has any effect on them). In my own experience my positive emotions outweigh my bad ones so allowing myself to wander and get carried away brings me more good than bad overall. I think one of the reasons I was depressed for so many years was I was too self-aware, lol. Being less mindful, ironically, seems to have helped me more than anything.

You're describing mindfulness, I think. Getting carried away in the moment is mindfulness. Not getting lost in your thoughts is mindfulness. Mindfulness isn't observing the shit out of your thoughts. It's being in the here and now without time traveling mentally and only acknowledging thoughts a bit as they float by. Every time you talk about mindfulness, it sounds like compulsive worrying and analyzing thoughts. I don't know how you came to believe that mindfulness was engaging with your thoughts, but it ain't!  

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Try checking out some texts about radical acceptance. It might help you.