(December 4, 2016 at 8:08 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I give up. I was feeling better after Shell was nice to reassure me but now I feel like my thank you wasn't accepted. Appreciating reassurance when given =/= excessively seeking reassurance. I feel so alone and misunderstood.

See, but now you're making me feel bad because I did accept your thank you and then just continued having a conversation. You're putting the onus of your emotions on me, which isn't fair from a friend. (I know you're going to debate this, but there is no other way to take it. You talk about how I didn't take your post the right way and no you feel so alone and misunderstood. Seriously?) I never said that you accepting it when given is the same as excessively seeking it. I said it looks like you're excessively seeking it from my perspective. Coming here and talking about your feelings and only accepting responses that are reassuring/arguing with those that aren't reassuring looks suspiciously like reassurance seeking. You act like admitting you might do something that is human to do is wrong. You make it seem like I'm saying excessive reassurance seeking makes you a bad person. I'm just saying that for someone who claims he knows all the right things to do, you're feeling awful an awful lot. Friends spot that stuff and try to help by giving advice. If you don't want help, you've chosen the wrong friends, clearly.

Quote:I'm starting to think that a lot of people are full of shit.

Sorry I disagreed with you and responded to your posts about your feelings. I'm not full of shit. I'm actually quite sorry I tried to be helpful in the only ways I know how, by offering advice.

(December 4, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Shell B Wrote: See, but now you're making me feel bad because I did accept your thank you and then just continued having a conversation. You're putting the onus of your emotions on me, which isn't fair from a friend.

I'm not making you feel bad. We own our own emotions.

How am I putting my emotions on you if you're telling me that I'm making you feel bad? Isn't it the other way around? Aren't you putting your emotions on me by saying that I'm making you feel bad?

Quote:(I know you're going to debate this, but there is no other way to take it. You talk about how I didn't take your post the right way and no you feel so alone and misunderstood. Seriously?)

There is another way to take it. (And yes I'm going to debate it and that's fine right?). I talk about how I feel alone and misunderstood. That doesn't mean I am. I'm not putting anything on you. You're not responsible for my feelings. I'm sorry that you feel bad that I feel bad but you're not responsible for how I feel and I'm sorry you feel that way

Quote:I never said that you accepting it when given is the same as excessively seeking it.

I know. I was just saying that I don't agree that I excessively seek it or even seek it at all.

Quote:I said it looks like you're excessively seeking it from my perspective.

Which is fine! And I'm trying to say that I'm not excessively seeking it from my perspective

Quote:Coming here and talking about your feelings and only accepting responses that are reassuring/arguing with those that aren't reassuring looks suspiciously like reassurance seeking.

I disagree with the advice and I accept the reassurance when it makes me feel better. I understand that from your perspective it looks like reassurance seeking and I also understand that from my perspective it certainly doesn't.

Quote:You act like admitting you might do something that is human to do is wrong. You make it seem like I'm saying excessive reassurance seeking makes you a bad person.

I'm sorry you feel that way That's not what I meant at all. I don't think it makes me a bad person. I just think it isn't true. Remember, I said I don't think I'm excessively seeking reassurance? I just don't agree and I keep trying to tell you that. There's no hidden meaning behind what I'm saying I literally meant that I don't agree. And that's okay It's okay that we disagree. It's okay that I think reassurance is helpful to me. It's okay that I like advice from my friends when I seek it and I like reassurance when I'm upset. That's okay, right?

Quote:I'm just saying that for someone who claims he knows all the right things to do, you're feeling awful an awful lot.

I feel good an awful lot too!

This is normal for me. There are explanations for why I've been more downhearted lately. The point is that I'm fine and I'm already getting help. But of course I love it when you cheer me up. There's nothing that needs fixing, it's just nice when I'm cheered up sooner rather than later. I always deal with things in my own way but friends are there to support each other and it's nice when I'm reassured. I love my friends.

Quote:Friends spot that stuff and try to help by giving advice. If you don't want help, you've chosen the wrong friends, clearly.

See now this is the sort of thing that bothers me. I don't like it when I'm told I don't want help just because I refuse a piece of advice. I could refuse advice a million times in a row and it doesn't mean I don't want help. I want help and advice when I ask for it and I'll follow it when I agree with it.

I really don't like it when I don't accept advice and someone says to me "well you clearly don't want my help then so I won't help you in future" or some shit like that. That's the kind of thing that bothers me.

Of course I want help from you and from my other friends. It doesn't mean I want advice without asking for it and even if I ask for it it doesn't mean that I'll necessarily agree. It's also fine to offer advice when I don't ask for it but when I've turned it down I want that to be that. I follow advice that I agree with. It doesn't matter how many times I disagree with advice it doesn't mean I don't want advice. I'll never know whether I'm going to agree with something until I'm offered it. I tend to prefer to be given advice when I ask for it because then at least I can be prepared for someone telling me I don't want their help if i turn it down. Most advice I refuse because most advice I'm already aware of and I'd already follow it if I agreed with it. But of course I want help and advice. I just might not agree with it and that's okay. I wouldn't think that you wouldn't want my advice if you didn't agree with it or follow it. And if you ever want my advice just ask and I'll offer it And it's fine if you disagree. I'd never say that you don't want my help I don't do that

Quote:Sorry I disagreed with you and responded to your posts about your feelings. I'm not full of shit. I'm actually quite sorry I tried to be helpful in the only ways I know how, by offering advice.

That wasn't about you Shell.. I'm sorry you thought it was. I said that I'm starting to feel like most people are full of shit. You're certainly not most people. That wasn't about you. That was regarding how this whole thing started where I express my emotions and get called childish for doing so because they can't handle it and they feel guilt tripped when I'm upset even though that's not my intention. You never called me childish. That wasn't about you.

You're certainly not full of shit. You're very honest.

Your advice is fine. Please don't be sorry or believe you wasted your time for offering your advice just because I disagreed with it. Yes you disagreed, there's no reason to be sorry about that. I disagreed too. We disagree. That's fine. It's no biggie if I don't agree with your advice it doesn't mean I don't want help or that you shouldn't bother next time, yeah?

I'm sorry that you felt like I made you feel bad. I don't think we made each other feel bad I feel like we are responsible for our own feelings. But I still feel sorry that I said something and then you reacted by saying that I made you feel bad because I don't want you to feel bad if I can help it.

I'm sorry I'm such a crappy communicator. This is my opinion. I feel like a crappy communicator. Sometimes at least. I feel like I cause misunderstandings.

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(December 4, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I just want to point out that advising someone to perhaps not bespeak every emotion at the time it is experienced is not emotionally phobic in and of itself. It can indicate such a state of mind, or something else entirely.

Those who know me know I'm an intensely emotional man. I simply find that broadcasting those emotions and then reacting inwardly to the responses I get is not good for my emotional balance.

Yeah of course not. But what I'm trying to say is that people who call me childish for expressing my emotions or tell me I'm having a 'meltdown' are perhaps emotionally phobic.

My point is that it's okay to feel whatever we feel and it's okay to express whatever we feel. It's how we express it. If we can express our emotions calmly, and rationally, and verbally... then that's mature. If someone says we're guilt-tripping them or they say we're playing the victim or they call us childish when we say "I feel hurt by what you said", or something to that effect, then we're not the one who can't handle emotions maturely.

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Anyway, I've probably overexplained all this.

My final word will be that I have at least one friend who does get this. I can express however I feel and they can express however they feel and it's fine, and we can have disagreements and it's fine, and no one has to walk on eggshells or hold anything in. It's absolutely fucking fantastic and I wish more people had that kind of emotional maturity. See, sometimes I think being in the minority is seen as anti-social and controversial but it certainly doesn't make it wrong. It's far far more wonderful to be able to just verbally express how we feel and it''s fine, no pretension, no holding things back, no losing control. Just honest, direct, mature emotional expression. It's truly wonderful. Wish it was more common.

The sad reality is that, yes, it isn't more common. It's seen as anti-social because most people like to take offence and overreact to so-called 'negative emotions' even when they're expressed calmly. We get angry or upset or hurt and people overreact and exaggerate and take it personally instead of realizing that how we feel about them in the moment is just an emotion and doesn't represent the friendship or how much we respect and care about them. Part of emotional maturity is indeed catering to the fact that most people aren't above average in emotional maturity. I struggle with that part but that's due to my high expectations of people I care about.

(December 4, 2016 at 8:16 pm)Shell B Wrote: [...]You want to talk about your feelings, but don't want anyone to respond other than to tell you that it's all right and they like you.[...]

That's not the case at all. We disagree about stuff but I wouldn't want it any other way if you genuinely disagree. I don't want everyone to agree I want everyone to be honest and speak their mind and from their hearts. Sure not everyone does that, people can hold stuff in or say white lies or whatever if they wish. But basically I'll take whatever's given and respond to it honestly. Doesn't matter whether we agree or not. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I can express disagreement and I can express my feelings and I can be honest about anything else I express too..... and that's all absolutely fine

But... bah. It certainly seems to cause a lot of misunderstandings when I disagree with folks. It must be the way I do it not that I do it. I know you're fine with me disagreeing. But that you think that I only want people to tell me everything is all right and they like me just shows that I'm really crappy at explaining myself, lol.

I want to be reassured and told it's alright and people like me but only if that's how they really feel and what they want to say. If you, or others, would rather offer advice or not reassure me that's fine too. It's not about what I want, it's about people giving me what they believe the truth is whether I like it or not. Literally whether I like it or not. I like reassurance and I also like disagreement. I just like honesty. Reassurance makes me feel better so of course I like it. I also think it's good for me when it's not excessive. I don't think there's any harm in being cheered up on occasion. But anyways... your difference of opinion with me is fine. I've just been continuing to disagree as you have and that's fine. I've been trying to explain that I'm not dismissing you, I'm just disagreeing with you and that's fine.

No one ever has to agree ever. We just have to get the truth out there and care about each other whichever way we want to show it, whether it's advice, reassurance or whatever. Whatever way we show that we're a friend to each other. It's all good. No one ever has to agree. No one is dismissing anyone. People just don't agree. And that's fine. It's never anything personal. It's just disagreement. It's super easy to disagree with me, I'm very disagreeable, lol. I find it rather ironic that other folks in my life in the past have said I have a problem with disagreement or just need to be right... because... the ironic thing is all I'm doing is persisting in disagreement like everyone else does. So what? That's the point. Disagreement is fine. No one is dismissing anyone. No one ever has to agree on anything ever. Of course people do agree. The point is whether they do or not doesn't matter. What matters is whether they truly and honestly agree. I would never pretend to agree. It's all good. No dismissal. Just disagreement. Which is as good as agreement. All we need is to speak our mind. And if people get hurt then they can say they feel hurt and that's fine too. It's all good. No one needs to be afraid of emotions or disagreement. No one is dismissed, we're all emotional, we're all human, disagreement happens, it's not personal, it's fine.

(December 4, 2016 at 8:32 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 4, 2016 at 8:08 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I give up. I was feeling better after Shell was nice to reassure me but now I feel like my thank you wasn't accepted. Appreciating reassurance when given =/= excessively seeking reassurance. I feel so alone and misunderstood.

See, but now you're making me feel bad because I did accept your thank you and then just continued having a conversation. You're putting the onus of your emotions on me, which isn't fair from a friend. (I know you're going to debate this, but there is no other way to take it. You talk about how I didn't take your post the right way and no you feel so alone and misunderstood. Seriously?) I never said that you accepting it when given is the same as excessively seeking it. I said it looks like you're excessively seeking it from my perspective. Coming here and talking about your feelings and only accepting responses that are reassuring/arguing with those that aren't reassuring looks suspiciously like reassurance seeking. You act like admitting you might do something that is human to do is wrong. You make it seem like I'm saying excessive reassurance seeking makes you a bad person. I'm just saying that for someone who claims he knows all the right things to do, you're feeling awful an awful lot. Friends spot that stuff and try to help by giving advice. If you don't want help, you've chosen the wrong friends, clearly.

Quote:I'm starting to think that a lot of people are full of shit.

Sorry I disagreed with you and responded to your posts about your feelings. I'm not full of shit. I'm actually quite sorry I tried to be helpful in the only ways I know how, by offering advice.

This. Spot on Shell.

And it relates to what I was saying elsewhere. Essentially, no one can say anything unless its good. Constructive criticism gets taken the wrong way and then we're left with all this over analyzing of things and (for lack of a better way of saying it), we are made responsible for the feelings of others. No. We aren't. I can't make anyone else feel a certain way. If my words want to be taken out of context, That's on the reader. I shouldn't have to spend pages explaining or apologizing for what I said when its clear from the get go, what was meant.

I am only responsible for what I say, not what others choose to understand.

Evie, I think that if an online forum is giving you that much anxiety, it can also be good to just take a break, and unplug from it. Just some friendly advice, we all have our moments online, but if it’s affecting your life that much…that’s not healthy.

I feel bad for Ham.

I'm not saying people's advice here doesn't have merit, but just knowing how sensitive he is I can only imagine how this looks to him. Even though I know no one here means any of it in a negative way to him, I think he's still seeing it as an attack and a gang up. Maybe a few of us should message him to make sure he's ok?

I feel bad for him, too...but not giving him some straight advice doesn't help him. Feeling sorry for people and just leaving it there, doesn't help them change and grow.

(December 5, 2016 at 5:01 am)Nymphadora Wrote: [...]
And it relates to what I was saying elsewhere. Essentially, no one can say anything unless its good.

This is such utter bullshit. I have never said that people can't agree with me or only have to say nice things. It's fine for people to disagree with me. It's fine for them to think what I'm saying is bullshit. It's fine for me to think what they're saying is bullshit.

Quote:Constructive criticism gets taken the wrong way and then we're left with all this over analyzing of things and (for lack of a better way of saying it), we are made responsible for the  feelings of others.

Taken the wrong way? Basically if I don't agree with your criticism then you label me as not liking criticism. It's horseshit. I openly encourage both agreement and disagreement. All I want is honest expression.

You mistake my disagreement as me saying "don't disagree with me" and my disagreement with your criticism as me saying "don't criticize me". It's such horseshit because I've never told anyone that they have to agree with me or they shouldn't criticize me. I am not responsible for your incorrectly thinking that I'm saying that when I categorically haven't said that anywhere and in fact I'm saying the exact opposite like I am now. It's like the bullshit about me guilt-tripping you merely because I expressed how I felt.

In fact ironically, it's the exact opposite. We can't disagree without you labelling me as having a problem with disagreement. I have to agree with your criticism or you say I can't handle it. It's always the case of the other fucker projecting onto me their own inability to handle my stubborn disagreement or rejection of criticism. Guess what... no one has to agree with each other's opinions or criticism and it doesn't matter how often it doesn't mean the person has a problem with disagreement merely because they don't agree. In fact, it's the person who wrongly labels people who don't agree with criticism as unable to handle it that has a problem with disagreement and can't handle it.

Quote: No. We aren't. I can't make anyone else feel a certain way.

...and yet you say I'm 'guilt-tripping' you and playing the martyr and the victim merely when I express my own feelings. Ironic.

Quote: If my words want to be taken out of context, That's on the reader. I shouldn't have to spend pages explaining or apologizing for what I said when its clear from the get go, what was meant.

Out of context my ass. I can't express how I feel without you labelling like I'm guilt-tripping you or I'm playing the victim or I'm being childish. You claim that I can't handle any constructive criticism when I've never ever said I can't handle it or that I don't want it. All I do is disagree with it. It's so fucking self-serving to act like I can't handle something merely because I don't agree with it. It's obviously you who has a problem with disagreement because merely by my disagreeing with your criticism you label me as not being able to handle it. Such utter bullshit.

You'll probably act like me saying "bullshit" or seeming irrate means I couldn't handle this criticism from you either. Guess what? You can say what I think is bullshit too and that's fine. That's the point. We're allowed to disagree. It's really really silly for you to say I don't want disagreement or criticism when I say the exact opposite and you're interpreting it that way merely because I don't agree with you which is incredibly ironic.

What I don't like is being misrepresented and wrongly accused. You're the one who can't handle disagreement because you say I can't handle what you're saying merely because I disagree with you.

Fuck knows how poorly you'll handle my criticism of you when you can't even handle the fact I disagree with yours.

Quote:I am only responsible for what I say, not what others choose to understand.

Yes.

The point is... you offer criticism. I disagree with it. I get told I can't handle it. It's extremely ironic because you just can't handle that I don't agree with it. Guess what, it's fine if we disagree and don't accept each other's criticism.

It's hilariously ironic projection that if I don't agree with criticism then I have a problem with disagreement LOL. You're basically saying unless I agree with you then I have a problem with anyone who disagrees with me...LOL. You're the one who has a problem with my not agreeing with your criticism. Guess what? I don't have to agree with you. Nor do you with me. In fact, you can disagree with me that it's true that you are the one who has a problem with disagreement. But it's patently obvious what the facts are. When I'm outright saying I'm fine with it and you're basing my having a problem with criticism on the fact I don't agree with it then that demonstrates that you're the one who has a problem with disagreement because you're saying I have a problem with it merely because I don't agree with you.

So... you make no sense.

ham, I messaged you on Slack. We can talk if you want.

(December 5, 2016 at 11:41 am)*Deidre* Wrote: I feel bad for him, too...but not giving him some straight advice doesn't help him. Feeling sorry for people and just leaving it there, doesn't help them change and grow.

I want straight advice. I just only want it from people who can handle it when I don't necessarily agree with it. I can handle it all. I just might not agree. And that's fine with me. I don't think anyone has to agree. If I get labelled as being dismissive or not being able to handle constructive criticism when I don't agree with it then I'm not the one who has a problem with criticism or disagreement. It's highly ironic.

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It's so ironic when someone disagrees and gets told they have a problem with people who disagree with them. I'm openly saying outright: It doesn't matter whether I agree or get upset or not I still want the criticism. I just don't want people to say I have a problem with it merely when I disagree with them. That's clearly not me with the problem. I don't have to agree with what's given to me.

So many fuckers in life like that. They offer help and when you don't accept it you're the one with the problem. And yet, when I offer help I never expect anyone to agree with it and I never tell them that they have a problem with it just because they reject it. That's absolutely fine. No one has to ever agree with my advice, no one has to ever agree with my criticism, no one has to ever agree with my opinions. I'm not the one with a problem if other people say I have a problem merely when I don't agree with them. It's very ironic.

I may be sensitive but I'm aware of my sensitivity and I can handle it. That's why I outright tell people that even if I get upset I still want their opinions and criticism. I can handle both the sensitivity of myself and others. What I don't want is to be told I can't handle it when others are hypersensitive to my disagreeing with them. If I can't disagree with someone's criticism or get upset without them telling me I can't handle it when I'm literally saying I can and it's fine for them to disagree with me and I'm glad they're being honest with me then I'm not the one with a problem. It's fine for me to disagree with someone's criticism exactly like it's fine for someone else to disagree with my criticism.

I don't tell someone that they can't handle my criticism or advice merely because they don't agree with it. And yet others do that to me. And that, ironically, is someone having a problem with a difference of opinion.

P.S. And before anyone thinks I'm angry or having a meltdown merely because I'm swearing and typing in bold. They're both just me being emphatic. How obvious do I have to make my point. I'm outright telling people they can disagree with me and it's fine and yet when I don't agree with what they say I get told I have a problem! I'm outright saying that whether I get upset or not I still want to hear what they have to say whether I agree with it or not! If I'm being mislabelled as saying I have a problem with a difference of opinion or criticism when I said no such thing and in fact have outright said the exact opposite and I'm only ever been mislabelled that way when I disagree then it's the other person(s) who can't handle the fact I disagree and who has a problem with disagreement. It's extremely clear.