(December 14, 2016 at 7:09 pm)Mr Greene Wrote:

(December 13, 2016 at 3:07 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It need not be that at all.  My sense of spirituality is the sense being humbled by the scale and grandeur of our Universe, and understanding how insignificant I am in it -- but at the same time understanding that I'm a part of the Universe too, that we are all parts of it. We're the parts that do the thinking. It's not woo, no matter your preconceived notions; that's simply a dramatic oversimplification, so far as I'm concerned.

Being humbled by the scale and grandeur of the universe? Isn't that stargazing?

Yes, so?
Stargazing is the act of looking at the stars. Being humbled by it and getting warm fuzzy feelings, that's the "spiritual" experience that comes with it.

For those who have asked what spirituality is, I have an answer that I think is global enough to be usable.

Spirituality is a preference for forming a world view out of myth, feelings and abstractions in an attempt to arrive at certain categories of subjective experience, as opposed to materialism which is a preference for forming a world view out of objects, properties, and rules in an attempt to arrive at objective truth.

So a spiritualist's evidence is that a certain idea or category of ideas arrive at some feeling or mental impression that he likes-- not that it follows physical rules or is even reproducible.

@bennyboy,
interesting - what do you mean by myth?

I think the general definition is that it means whatever someone says it means. It's too elastic to pin down. I've just noticed two general usages: metaphor and woo. So either way, it is generally dealing with abstractions far removed from concrete science; it's just a matter of whether the person is claiming some sort of fact-based conclusion from it all or not.

If someone tells me their spirituality is about looking at the hairs near their belly button and the feelings this gives them, I don't feel I have the authority to tell them that's not allowed.

O.K peeps...thanks for your replies..I appreciate your input in this thread...
i am out until 03 january..on a travell abroad..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO6glz0wpmo

(December 15, 2016 at 6:41 am)Alex K Wrote: @bennyboy,
interesting - what do you mean by myth?

I'd describe it as a narrative that represents the essential qualities of an idea rather than a historical truth.  There's no material being Venus, for example, but you can see in her description and mythology that she represents certain aspects of the female personality, and also of the male obsession.

So if a spiritualist was to make a little shrine to Venus, meditate for a couple of hours, burn some incense or whatever, what is the point of this?  It will give her a focal point for a particular aspect of her self that she wants to connect with-- maybe she wants the confidence to approach a romantic interest, for example.  She will meditate until she feels she is a manifestation of Venus, i.e. that there's a sense of sexiness exuding from her. Factually, we'd interpret this as a kind of positive visualization with subsequent changes to mood and behavior, mediate by changes in brain function and the release of hormones. But she might take it much more literally: "I give myself to Venus. I AM Venus. Venus expresses herself through my body and my being." etc. etc.

This is just one example.  All kind of spiritualists engage in all kinds of rituals and practices.  But it seems to me they all involve some kind of deliberate focus, a suspension of aspects of belief, and some mental state or experience which they are hoping to achieve.

(December 15, 2016 at 4:49 am)Alex K Wrote:

(December 14, 2016 at 7:09 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: Being humbled by the scale and grandeur of the universe? Isn't that stargazing?

Yes, so?
Stargazing is the act of looking at the stars. Being humbled by it and getting warm fuzzy feelings, that's the "spiritual" experience that comes with it.

So "spiritual" = 'emotional'... Feels like we're back with the theists...

For myself, if there is anything behind all of this then it has to tangible in it's most primitive format, ie; the perspective of a tribal hunter-gatherer.
Ray Mears' programmes appear to show this aspect, not based on emotion but on the characteristics of the environment in which tribal people live.

Enjoy your travels tiger! Thank you for the discussion

(December 15, 2016 at 8:00 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 15, 2016 at 6:41 am)Alex K Wrote: @bennyboy,
interesting - what do you mean by myth?

I'd describe it as a narrative that represents the essential qualities of an idea rather than a historical truth.  There's no material being Venus, for example, but you can see in her description and mythology that she represents certain aspects of the female personality, and also of the male obsession.

So if a spiritualist was to make a little shrine to Venus, meditate for a couple of hours, burn some incense or whatever, what is the point of this?  It will give her a focal point for a particular aspect of her self that she wants to connect with-- maybe she wants the confidence to approach a romantic interest, for example.  She will meditate until she feels she is a manifestation of Venus, i.e. that there's a sense of sexiness exuding from her.  Factually, we'd interpret this as a kind of positive visualization with subsequent changes to mood and behavior, mediate by changes in brain function and the release of hormones.  But she might take it much more literally: "I give myself to Venus.  I AM Venus.  Venus expresses herself through my body and my being." etc. etc.

This is just one example.  All kind of spiritualists engage in all kinds of rituals and practices.  But it seems to me they all involve some kind of deliberate focus, a suspension of aspects of belief, and some mental state or experience which they are hoping to achieve.

So maybe it's a matter of losing yourself in the subject matter. Maybe when I play a game or watch a film and become fully immersed in it, it's a spiritual experience. I'm pretending that I am the character in the game, or that the characters in a film are "real".

Travel safely, Tiger.

(December 15, 2016 at 8:07 am)Mr Greene Wrote: So "spiritual" = 'emotional'... Feels like we're back with the theists...

I wouldn't want to live an unemotional life, myself. I regard the good life as being, for me, balancing emotion and reason.

(December 15, 2016 at 9:40 am)robvalue Wrote: So maybe it's a matter of losing yourself in the subject matter. Maybe when I play a game or watch a film and become fully immersed in it, it's a spiritual experience. I'm pretending that I am the character in the game, or that the characters in a film are "real".

I think both those activities COULD be spiritual ones, but I also think I have to give a caveat to my former definition. I'd say there has to be either a feeling of elevation beyond one's normal range or capacity, or at least an attempt to elevate oneself.

So for a game or movie to be a spiritual experience, I'd say (and this is just me moving goalposts slightly) that you'd have to feel those things connected you with a part of yourself you couldn't otherwise connect with, and that you felt dramatically elevated because of that.


But to be fair, I've been in "the zone" in sports a couple times and in music several times, and in the case of music I'd definitely say that was a spiritual experience to me. So was my viewing of certain movies.