(December 23, 2016 at 6:35 pm)AAA Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 6:20 pm)Jesster Wrote: No, atheism is not related to science. Atheism is simply a rejection of a claim. Atheism also is unrelated to evolution, so you attacking that scientific fact isn't going to accomplish a damn thing.

Also, no, we don't have to fill in the gap to reject your claim. Asking us "well what else caused all this then?" does not require us to answer a damn thing in order to not accept your bullshit. If you want us to believe a damn thing you do, then come here with the evidence to back that up.

All I was trying to say was that intelligence is the only known cause capable of producing specified/sequential information. Someone said that was wrong, so I asked them if they know of another cause. I'm not saying that because we don't know how it was done we appeal to God, I'm saying that because we know intelligence is capable, then it is not irrational to conclude that it played a role. 

What would you consider evidence of design?

You brought a claim first. Asking for another one does not improve yours one bit. If someone does not believe you, it is on you to back it up. It's not on them to prove you wrong.

What would I consider evidence of design? How about you start with any evidence and we'll work from there.

All this from someone who is trying to talk about science... right.

(December 23, 2016 at 6:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 5:21 pm)AAA Wrote: Ok, what's another cause that is capable?

Other than the evidenced cause, you mean?  It wouldn't and doesn't matter.  The question is malformed and uniformative regardless.

"If not god than what" ignores demonstrable fact, and even if it didn't...would amount to no more than a failure of your own imagination.

I didn't say "If not god than what". You know that there is only one known cause capable of producing this type of information. It is possible that there is another cause that has eluded scientists for decades, but I don't see a reason to stretch my imagination to believe that.

(December 23, 2016 at 6:35 pm)AAA Wrote: All I was trying to say was that intelligence is the only known cause capable of producing specified/sequential information.

You are presupposing that this information was specified. From that error the rest of your erroneous conclusions follow.

Quote:Someone said that was wrong, so I asked them if they know of another cause. I'm not saying that because we don't know how it was done we appeal to God, I'm saying that because we know intelligence is capable, then it is not irrational to conclude that it played a role. 

What would you consider evidence of design?

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(December 23, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Chas Wrote: Or one could try to understand natural selection.  
You make the same old simplistic argument looking only at end products instead of the process of evolution.

I understand natural selection. It isn't a creative force, it just allows the genes of the most reproductively successful to increase in frequency.

It is a shaping force. New information is created by mutation and recombination.

Quote:You assume that the best reproducers are the ones that have deviated more from the norm.

First, I assume no such thing.
Second, don't tell me what I think.

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(December 23, 2016 at 6:45 pm)AAA Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 6:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Other than the evidenced cause, you mean?  It wouldn't and doesn't matter.  The question is malformed and uniformative regardless.

"If not god than what" ignores demonstrable fact, and even if it didn't...would amount to no more than a failure of your own imagination.

I didn't say "If not god than what". You know that there is only one known cause capable of producing this type of information. It is possible that there is another cause that has eluded scientists for decades, but I don't see a reason to stretch my imagination to believe that.

Wrong.  Natural selection does it.

(December 23, 2016 at 6:51 pm)Chas Wrote: It is a shaping force.  New information is created by mutation and recombination.

(My bold).

Misread this as "It's shagging force."

Which, funnily enough, isn't particularly inaccurate.

(December 23, 2016 at 6:42 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 6:35 pm)AAA Wrote: All I was trying to say was that intelligence is the only known cause capable of producing specified/sequential information. Someone said that was wrong, so I asked them if they know of another cause. I'm not saying that because we don't know how it was done we appeal to God, I'm saying that because we know intelligence is capable, then it is not irrational to conclude that it played a role. 

What would you consider evidence of design?

You brought a claim first. Asking for another one does not improve yours one bit. If someone does not believe you, it is on you to back it up. It's not on them to prove you wrong.

What would I consider evidence of design? How about you start with any evidence and we'll work from there.

All this from someone who is trying to talk about science... right.

I'll lay out the simplified version of the central dogma of biology and you can judge for yourself if it makes you think it was designed. 

It starts with the genome. The genome is composed of sequences of nucleotides called genes. The gene sequences are preceded by what are called promoter regions. Depending on the promoter sequence, a group of proteins collectively called an RNA polymerase bind with different affinities. The RNA polymerase then slides along the gene sequence at a rapid pace and creates another sequence of nucleotides based on the sequence from the DNA that it is reading. This new sequence is called an mRNA sequence. The mRNA sequence then gets bound by another cluster of proteins called the ribosome. The ribosome slides along the mRNA and creates a chain of amino acids based on the mRNA sequence. This chain of amino acids (called a polypeptide) then folds into a specific shape based on the chemical properties of the amino acids. The protein then associates with other proteins and they perform a function together. These functions are what make up your body. 

To recap: your body is the result of interacting proteins. Your proteins' functions are determined by their shape. Their shape is determined by the sequence in the mRNA. The mRNA sequence is dictated the DNA sequence. The DNA sequence is highly irregular specified information. Despite a thorough search, highly irregular specified information only has one known cause: intelligence. 

You wouldn't tell me what type of evidence you would consider evidence of design, so I just started here.

(December 23, 2016 at 7:01 pm)AAA Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 6:42 pm)Jesster Wrote: You brought a claim first. Asking for another one does not improve yours one bit. If someone does not believe you, it is on you to back it up. It's not on them to prove you wrong.

What would I consider evidence of design? How about you start with any evidence and we'll work from there.

All this from someone who is trying to talk about science... right.

I'll lay out the simplified version of the central dogma of biology and you can judge for yourself if it makes you think it was designed. 

It starts with the genome. The genome is composed of sequences of nucleotides called genes. The gene sequences are preceded by what are called promoter regions. Depending on the promoter sequence, a group of proteins collectively called an RNA polymerase bind with different affinities. The RNA polymerase then slides along the gene sequence at a rapid pace and creates another sequence of nucleotides based on the sequence from the DNA that it is reading. This new sequence is called an mRNA sequence. The mRNA sequence then gets bound by another cluster of proteins called the ribosome. The ribosome slides along the mRNA and creates a chain of amino acids based on the mRNA sequence. This chain of amino acids (called a polypeptide) then folds into a specific shape based on the chemical properties of the amino acids. The protein then associates with other proteins and they perform a function together. These functions are what make up your body. 

To recap: your body is the result of interacting proteins. Your proteins' functions are determined by their shape. Their shape is determined by the sequence in the mRNA. The mRNA sequence is dictated the DNA sequence. The DNA sequence is highly irregular specified information. Despite a thorough search, highly irregular specified information only has one known cause: intelligence. 

You wouldn't tell me what type of evidence you would consider evidence of design, so I just started here.

Well, no, it doesn't start with the genome.  It starts with much simpler chemicals and all genomes are products of evolution.

AAA,

See sometimes in life... a mommy lifeform and a daddy lifeform love each other very much and they get certain urges...

Only joking. Love not necessary for the fuckin' 'n' evolvin' ™

(December 23, 2016 at 6:51 pm)Chas Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 6:35 pm)AAA Wrote: All I was trying to say was that intelligence is the only known cause capable of producing specified/sequential information.

You are presupposing that this information was specified.  From that error the rest of your erroneous conclusions follow.

Quote:Someone said that was wrong, so I asked them if they know of another cause. I'm not saying that because we don't know how it was done we appeal to God, I'm saying that because we know intelligence is capable, then it is not irrational to conclude that it played a role. 

What would you consider evidence of design?

---

I understand natural selection. It isn't a creative force, it just allows the genes of the most reproductively successful to increase in frequency.

It is a shaping force.  New information is created by mutation and recombination.

Quote:You assume that the best reproducers are the ones that have deviated more from the norm.

First, I assume no such thing.
Second, don't tell me what I think.

---

(December 23, 2016 at 6:45 pm)AAA Wrote: I didn't say "If not god than what". You know that there is only one known cause capable of producing this type of information. It is possible that there is another cause that has eluded scientists for decades, but I don't see a reason to stretch my imagination to believe that.

Wrong.  Natural selection does it.

This information is specified. It accomplishes a desired and specific function. Natural selection is not a shaping force, unless you mean it shaping populations. Even then, I would argue that it is a mechanism to prevent genetic degradation by removing the individuals that suffer mutations. And you said it yourself that mutation and recombination are responsible for the new information. This means that you do in fact assume that the best reproducers are the ones that have deviated from the norm (the mutated ones). And we have no idea to what extent mutation/ recombination add information. We don't even know if they can at all. Assuming that it can add seemingly infinite information is way too speculative for me.

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(December 23, 2016 at 7:04 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: AAA,

See sometimes in life... a mommy lifeform and a daddy lifeform love each other very much and they get certain urges...

Only joking. Love not necessary for the fuckin' 'n' evolvin' ™

So let me get this straight. You think that near infinite complexity will arise given a replicating system, time, and environmental pressure?

(December 23, 2016 at 7:01 pm)AAA Wrote: Despite a thorough search, highly irregular specified information only has one known cause: intelligence. 

This is an unsupported claim. This is what I'm asking evidence for. Are you a presuppositionist or something?

(December 23, 2016 at 7:01 pm)AAA Wrote: You wouldn't tell me what type of evidence you would consider evidence of design, so I just started here.

ANY evidence. You've given me none for the above claim.

(December 23, 2016 at 7:02 pm)Chas Wrote:

(December 23, 2016 at 7:01 pm)AAA Wrote: I'll lay out the simplified version of the central dogma of biology and you can judge for yourself if it makes you think it was designed. 

It starts with the genome. The genome is composed of sequences of nucleotides called genes. The gene sequences are preceded by what are called promoter regions. Depending on the promoter sequence, a group of proteins collectively called an RNA polymerase bind with different affinities. The RNA polymerase then slides along the gene sequence at a rapid pace and creates another sequence of nucleotides based on the sequence from the DNA that it is reading. This new sequence is called an mRNA sequence. The mRNA sequence then gets bound by another cluster of proteins called the ribosome. The ribosome slides along the mRNA and creates a chain of amino acids based on the mRNA sequence. This chain of amino acids (called a polypeptide) then folds into a specific shape based on the chemical properties of the amino acids. The protein then associates with other proteins and they perform a function together. These functions are what make up your body. 

To recap: your body is the result of interacting proteins. Your proteins' functions are determined by their shape. Their shape is determined by the sequence in the mRNA. The mRNA sequence is dictated the DNA sequence. The DNA sequence is highly irregular specified information. Despite a thorough search, highly irregular specified information only has one known cause: intelligence. 

You wouldn't tell me what type of evidence you would consider evidence of design, so I just started here.

Well, no, it doesn't start with the genome.  It starts with much simpler chemicals and all genomes are products of evolution.

What makes you think that chemicals will produce genomes? Lone nucleotides or even nucleic acids are not the same as genomes. Similarly, amino acids are not the same as genomes. Not only do you need nucleotide codes to arise, you also need a system to connect this to a protein code to eventually arise as well.