(December 28, 2016 at 7:44 pm)Lek Wrote:

(December 27, 2016 at 10:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Unless you can find a "disciple" living around somewhere it looks like your godboy was full of shit.

Or rather, the assholes who wrote the silly gospel were.

Again, he's speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.  First of all, in verse 27 he is using apocalyptic language, which means he is speaking symbolically.  He is purposely using language taken from the old testament book of Daniel 7:13 in an apocalyptic prophecy which reads:

13 As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven.

When the bible uses apocalyptic language they are normally referring to a cataclysmic event, such as the invasion of Israel and the ensuing captivity of the Jewish people by Babylon, or the end of time in Revelation.  The disciples were schooled in the old testament scriptures and would have been familiar with this.  That's why you need to consider his audience.

In verse 2 of Matthew 24, the chapter you are quoting Jesus says when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to the buildings as they were leaving the temple:

2 But he responded, “Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!”

This clues us that he will be talking about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Jewish sacrificial system.  Jesus will come in power with his kingdom to accomplish this as stated in verse 30 of the chapter.

And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In verse 34 he says:

I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.  The destruction of the temple occurred within the time span of the generation living at the time of Jesus' prediction.

Your interpretation of verse 13 is quite interesting, especially when put in juxtaposition to Acts 1: 9-11

Quote: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

If the passage in Matthew 21 is symbolic of Israeli history, then what's all the crap about the second coming? What is the Church waiting for?
Now everybody watch how skillfully this master of obfuscation will manage to have his cake and eat it too.

(December 29, 2016 at 11:24 am)Godschild Wrote:

(December 29, 2016 at 10:47 am)Brian37 Wrote: Let me translate  "I don't need any clues from you", really means "I am unwilling to consider that I got it wrong" even in the face of the fact my book was written in an age of scientific ignorance. Don't feel bad GC, no religion, polytheistic or monotheistic worldwide, back then had any modern concept of scientific reality that we do now.

I wasn't trying to use the Bible as a science book. The Bible is a book that Christians use to grow in a better relationship with our Savior and Lord. I know God is real and He is who He says He is, He states in his book He is the only God and He created this planet and all that's good upon it. I used my God given mind to see the truth through nature and noticed you did not disagree with the content of my previous post.

GC

So without peer review all you are saying is "I like what I believe". So do all the other humans with other god claims. 

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The bible is a book that Christians use to grow in a better relationship with our Savior"

"The Koran is a book that Muslims use to grow in better relationship with Mohammed and Allah"

"The Torah and Talmud are books that Jews use to grow in a better relationship with Yahweh"

"Buddha is the enlightened one whom Buddhists use to reach Nirvana"

"The Baghavad Gitas and Vedas are whom the Hindus use to grow in a better relationship with their gods"

Great that you accept that you are not claiming the bible is a science textbook. That is a start. But if you accept that all the other religions you reject are merely the likes of others, don't stupidly think that they don't think they got it right as much as you think you got it right. You all think you got it right. 

GC you, like most humans bought into something either your parents and or society sold you. Nobody is asking you what you believe, but why you feel the need to believe it. It feels right? So?

Skeptics question every religion, not just yours. To us we feel like DMV employees overwhelmed by a planet of wannabe drivers who cant take an eye test because they don't want to open their eyes, and don't accept the concept of a combustion engine (IE evolution and climate change), but yet they want to all drive on "feels right" "feels good", without one lick of evidence they know what they are talking about when it comes to the nature of reality.

---

(December 29, 2016 at 11:31 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: GC, why would you think evolution would have a better result than being created by a perfect being? You seem to be going with 'if we evolved, we'd be better than if we were created'. Doesn't sound very sound to me.

Not sure what that line of questioning was meant to demonstrate. But knowing you are an atheist, let me see if I can try to guess.

You have two options.

1. Mater Puppet Wizard did it.

2. No Wizard required and we are a result of an non cognitive natural process(to which I agree with option 2)

Correct me if I am wrong. But maybe you are arguing the "if" qualifier word here.

To GC,

Evolution DOES NOT claim humans are an apex master species. Evolution says humans simply have different adaptations. Our brains as smart as we think we are, will not make us as successful long term like the water bear or cockroaches or bacteria. We can be, if we want to though, be smart enough to extend our finite ride longer. But we are NOT an apex in life. We are merely one species on a planet of billions of species of everything, from insects to fish, to bacteria plants to birds to, you name it. We are not an apex. We will most likely go extinct either by our own hand, or something like what killed the dinosaurs but other life, like bacteria, water bears and cockroaches will more likely continue on.

Religion however contradicts itself with the claim humans are an apex and a master species perfectly designed. And when the first polytheistic gods and monotheistic gods were claimed, humans were simply looking for answers as to why good and bad happened. But the problem with the idea of a human being made by perfect gods or a perfect God is defied by the real reality of our own biological flaws such as getting childhood cancer, or choking to death on food because we share the same eating and breathing tube. Those are the physical absurdities that defy the logic of a god that knows what it is doing. 

The moral aspect of a deity/supernatural being/ polytheistic or monotheistic God is even worse as a claim if anyone of any religion wants to claim it or they are watching out for humans. 50 to 60 million humans die every year from everything, in birth to old age, from accident, crime natural disaster and war. That does not strike me that Allah, or Yahweh or Jesus or Buddha or Apollo or Zues or the ancient Egyptian sun god Ra is watching out for humans. 

Humans have always thought their deities were real since they first started making those guesses as to reality. I am trying to tell you that really all it is is our species projections of their own attributes and desires and fears and narcissism.

(December 29, 2016 at 11:04 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(December 29, 2016 at 11:24 am)Godschild Wrote:

---

I wasn't trying to use the Bible as a science book. The Bible is a book that Christians use to grow in a better relationship with our Savior and Lord. I know God is real and He is who He says He is, He states in his book He is the only God and He created this planet and all that's good upon it. I used my God given mind to see the truth through nature and noticed you did not disagree with the content of my previous post.

GC

---

So without peer review all you are saying is "I like what I believe". So do all the other humans with other god claims. 

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The bible is a book that Christians use to grow in a better relationship with our Savior"

"The Koran is a book that Muslims use to grow in better relationship with Mohammed and Allah"

"The Torah and Talmud are books that Jews use to grow in a better relationship with Yahweh"

"Buddha is the enlightened one whom Buddhists use to reach Nirvana"

"The Baghavad Gitas and Vedas are whom the Hindus use to grow in a better relationship with their gods"

GC Wrote:Only the Jews of the ones you listed believe in having a relationship with their God.

Brian37 Wrote:Great that you accept that you are not claiming the bible is a science textbook. That is a start. But if you accept that all the other religions you reject are merely the likes of others, don't stupidly think that they don't think they got it right as much as you think you got it right. You all think you got it right. 

GC Wrote:You need to understand I know without a doubt Christianity is the only true religion, the one with a living God. I know the others believe they are right, but they're not. If someone is practicing a religion without looking for or wanting a relationship with a supreme being then how can they truly think they are right.

Brian37 Wrote:GC you, like most humans bought into something either your parents and or society sold you. Nobody is asking you what you believe, but why you feel the need to believe it. It feels right? So?

GC Wrote:I bought into nothing, I was called by God and answered yes. Since that time God as He promised has proven himself to me in various ways, making it impossible for me to deny Him. My belief and knowledge of God has nothing to do with feels good or feels right. I believe that most people who go on feelings are fooling themselves for a variety of reasons but, any and all those reasons are for their own self interest and that's not what Christianity is about.

Brian37 Wrote:Evolution DOES NOT claim humans are an apex master species. Evolution says humans simply have different adaptations.

GC Wrote:I know this, I do understand what evolutionary science claims. However my world view is different and I see man absolutely at the top.

Brian37 Wrote:Religion however contradicts itself with the claim humans are an apex and a master species perfectly designed. And when the first polytheistic gods and monotheistic gods were claimed, humans were simply looking for answers as to why good and bad happened.

GC Wrote:Christianity states that only Adam and Eve were perfectly created with the free will of choice. As for why people were inventing gods your above claim is only speculation. Today we see the peoples of the past as primitive yet they have built structures we can not replicate. In Syria there is a foundation stone so heavy that modern equipment could't move it, yet the people who constructed the building formed this stone and then moved it to the building site. Many ancient people were highly intelligent many of our machines today are based from ancient design.

Brian37 Wrote:50 to 60 million humans die every year from everything, in birth to old age, from accident, crime natural disaster and war. That does not strike me that Yahweh, Jesus or .... or ..... or .... or..... is watching out for humans. 

GC Wrote:All those "or" gods may have made that promise but, the God of scripture said it is appointed to man that one death is a certainty. He did promise to help those who sought Him with their problems and to redeem those who would believe in Christ and what He did for us.

Brian37 Wrote:Humans have always thought their deities were real since they first started making those guesses as to reality. I am trying to tell you that really all it is is our species projections of their own attributes and desires and fears and narcissism.

GC Wrote:These things may seem true to you, as for me I know that the God of creation is real and alive today. No one had to convince me, no one brainwashed me, like I said earlier in this post God proved himself to me as He promised He would.

GC

---

(December 29, 2016 at 11:31 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: GC, why would you think evolution would have a better result than being created by a perfect being? You seem to be going with 'if we evolved, we'd be better than if we were created'. Doesn't sound very sound to me.

I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.

GC

(December 30, 2016 at 1:21 am)Godschild Wrote:

(December 29, 2016 at 11:04 pm)Brian37 Wrote: So without peer review all you are saying is "I like what I believe". So do all the other humans with other god claims. 

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The bible is a book that Christians use to grow in a better relationship with our Savior"

"The Koran is a book that Muslims use to grow in better relationship with Mohammed and Allah"

"The Torah and Talmud are books that Jews use to grow in a better relationship with Yahweh"

"Buddha is the enlightened one whom Buddhists use to reach Nirvana"

"The Baghavad Gitas and Vedas are whom the Hindus use to grow in a better relationship with their gods"

GC Wrote:Only the Jews of the ones you listed believe in having a relationship with their God.

Brian37 Wrote:Great that you accept that you are not claiming the bible is a science textbook. That is a start. But if you accept that all the other religions you reject are merely the likes of others, don't stupidly think that they don't think they got it right as much as you think you got it right. You all think you got it right. 

GC Wrote:You need to understand I know without a doubt Christianity is the only true religion, the one with a living God. I know the others believe they are right, but they're not. If someone is practicing  a religion without looking for or wanting a relationship with a supreme being then how can they truly think they are right.

Brian37 Wrote:GC you, like most humans bought into something either your parents and or society sold you. Nobody is asking you what you believe, but why you feel the need to believe it. It feels right? So?

GC Wrote:I bought into nothing, I was called by God and answered yes. Since that time God as He promised has proven himself to me in various ways, making it impossible for me to deny Him. My belief and knowledge of God has nothing to do with feels good or feels right. I believe that most people who go on feelings are fooling themselves for a variety of reasons but, any and all those reasons are for their own self interest and that's not what Christianity is about.

Brian37 Wrote:Evolution DOES NOT claim humans are an apex master species. Evolution says humans simply have different adaptations.

GC Wrote:I know this, I do understand what evolutionary science claims. However my world view is different and I see man absolutely at the top.

Brian37 Wrote:Religion however contradicts itself with the claim humans are an apex and a master species perfectly designed. And when the first polytheistic gods and monotheistic gods were claimed, humans were simply looking for answers as to why good and bad happened.

GC Wrote:Christianity states that only Adam and Eve were perfectly created with the free will of choice. As for why people were inventing gods your above claim is only speculation. Today we see the peoples of the past as primitive yet they have built structures we can not replicate. In Syria there is a foundation stone so heavy that modern equipment could't move it, yet the people who constructed the building formed this stone and then moved it to the building site. Many ancient people were highly intelligent many of our machines today are based from ancient design.

Brian37 Wrote:50 to 60 million humans die every year from everything, in birth to old age, from accident, crime natural disaster and war. That does not strike me that Yahweh, Jesus or .... or ..... or .... or..... is watching out for humans. 

GC Wrote:All those "or" gods may have made that promise but, the God of scripture said it is appointed to man that one death is a certainty. He did promise to help those who sought Him with their problems and to redeem those who would believe in Christ and what He did for us.

Brian37 Wrote:Humans have always thought their deities were real since they first started making those guesses as to reality. I am trying to tell you that really all it is is our species projections of their own attributes and desires and fears and narcissism.

GC Wrote:These things may seem true to you, as for me I know that the God of creation is real and alive today. No one had to convince me, no one brainwashed me, like I said earlier in this post God proved himself to me as He promised He would.

GC

---

(December 29, 2016 at 11:31 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: GC, why would you think evolution would have a better result than being created by a perfect being? You seem to be going with 'if we evolved, we'd be better than if we were created'. Doesn't sound very sound to me.

I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.

GC

You are ignoring your OWN admission, that you are NOT claiming the bible is a science textbook.

STOP IGNORING THAT.

If your car breaks down, and you don't know how to fix it, you don't pray to a car pixy, you take it to a mechanic. You don't invent car spirits or car devils to explain why it is not working, you take it to a mechanic.

GREAT you admit the bible is NOT a science textbook.

So when a evolutionary scientist states the fact that EVOLUTION IS FACT, stop being fucking stupid, accept it, your private parts will not fall off and you wont burst into flames.

Otherwise, since you don't know how to build a car from scratch, pray to a car pixy to fix it. That is how stupid your logic sounds to us.

GC "Brian, stop being so offensive"

Well what the hell do you want me to do? When you say the bible is true, while admitting it is not a science textbook, to us you might as well be saying.

GC "The Chicago Cubs won the Superbowl"

We get that you like what you believe we really do get that, a great number of us were as deep into belief as you feel the need to be now. But we are telling you it really is just in your head. The good news is that their is no sky bully to threaten you or ground troll to burn you. You wont burst into flames if you find out you were wrong.

Godschild Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:GC, why would you think evolution would have a better result than being created by a perfect being? You seem to be going with 'if we evolved, we'd be better than if we were created'. Doesn't sound very sound to me.

I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.
GC

Because that's now how evolution works, GC. If I misunderstood it as badly as you do, I probably wouldn't believe it either. Evolution is not miraculous. It does not bend towards some ideal state. Natural selection eliminates individuals who aren't adapted well enough to their environment from the gene pool. It has no vision for the future, it may let a more specialized species out compete a more generally adaptable one and when only the more specialized species is left, it may die out due to change in the environment, and both species are gone. We're adapted to our environment as it is now and if the environment changes and too many of us can't adapt, we'll die off. That's all natural selection promises. Every biological feature has a cost, they take energy, and if they don't increase the chance of reproductive success, they're gradually lost, like cave fish losing their vision. We don't have a Swiss Army knife of special adaptations because we don't really need them, do we? We get things done with hands, ingenuity and social cooperation, and that's been enough for us to dominate the planet.

(December 30, 2016 at 10:55 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Godschild Wrote:I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.
GC

Because that's now how evolution works, GC. If I misunderstood it as badly as you do, I probably wouldn't believe it either. Evolution is not miraculous. It does not bend towards some ideal state. Natural selection eliminates individuals who aren't adapted well enough to their environment from the gene pool. It has no vision for the future, it may let a more specialized species out compete a more generally adaptable one and when only the more specialized species is left, it may die out due to change in the environment, and both species are gone. We're adapted to our environment as it is now and if the environment changes and too many of us can't adapt, we'll die off. That's all natural selection promises. Every biological feature has a cost, they take energy, and if they don't increase the chance of reproductive success, they're gradually lost, like cave fish losing their vision. We don't have a Swiss Army knife of special adaptations because we don't really need them, do we? We get things done with hands, ingenuity and social cooperation, and that's been enough for us to dominate the planet.

I agree it has no goal for the future, but It isn't about survival of the fittest either. It is simply about the ability to adapt. Health does play a factor yes, but only one factor.

I like to use the following example.

Two guys are sitting side by side in a bar. One guy is 50 years old only five feet tall 200 lbs, has health probs because of his weight, but has three kids. The guy sitting next to him is 6 feet tall only 25, buff and fit, no kids. The small guy spills a beer on the big guy. The big guy gets upset and tries to start a fight with him, the small guy pulls out a gun and shoots the big guy dead. The unfit guy won at evolution because he produced offspring and the healthy guy did not before he died.

Fitness is only one aspect of survival, producing offspring before you die is a factor. Evolution still does not care what life wins, only what works.

---

Adaptation is about getting to the point of reproduction, that includes the individual life species avoiding death, nut just having healthy genes. It is hard for most theist to grasp the reality that most attempts at life fail. Most sperm never get inside the egg, most eggs go to period. Most acorns fall to the ground and rot and don't end up becoming adult trees.

And even the life that starts can get disease, have genetic flaws, or get killed by other life, or natural disaster, before it complete's it's life cycle.

(December 30, 2016 at 1:21 am)Godschild Wrote: I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.

GC

It makes far more sense to ask that question of god. Why would an intelligent god make cockroaches hardier than jhumans? Why would he even create cockroaches at all that crawl in people's food and spread feces on little kids toothbrushes?

(December 30, 2016 at 3:09 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(December 30, 2016 at 1:21 am)Godschild Wrote: I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.

GC

It makes  far more sense to ask that question of god. Why would an intelligent god make cockroaches hardier than jhumans? Why would he even create cockroaches at all that crawl in people's food and spread feces on little kids toothbrushes?

Wait for it, 

"It's a test"
"It's punishment"
"God works in mysterious ways"
"God doesn't  have to explain himself to you"

Que the circular reasoning of an old unscientific book by quoting it "It says so because it says so".

(December 30, 2016 at 3:09 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(December 30, 2016 at 1:21 am)Godschild Wrote: I don't and I'm not sure why you thought I stated that. What I tried to say was why would evolution leave out of man what it put into all other species if evolution were true.

GC

It makes  far more sense to ask that question of god. Why would an intelligent god make cockroaches hardier than jhumans? Why would he even create cockroaches at all that crawl in people's food and spread feces on little kids toothbrushes?

Do you believe that cockroaches have no purpose?

Lek Wrote:Do you believe that cockroaches have no purpose?

Like everything else, their purpose is to survive. If they were designed with humans in mind, they would be less 'pesty' and more things would think they taste like pork chops.