(January 1, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 5:05 pm)Dragonspride1995 Wrote: Notice I never claimed superiority over you? I'm not being shy, i'm saying on topic.

He is being hostile and rude and condescending. I would just ignore. You came here for genuine respectful discussion, not for someone to be a dick to you for no reason.

While I agree the OP is mostly reasonable, I don't understand how you can't see the ironic condescension and hostility in "you are a sinner just like me, and I believe I deserve hell" in a thread about the crappy way some Christians treat atheists.

OP, I do thank you for your discourse. It is important to understand, though, that implying people deserve hell is kind of awful.

(January 1, 2017 at 6:22 pm)The_Empress Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: He is being hostile and rude and condescending. I would just ignore. You came here for genuine respectful discussion, not for someone to be a dick to you for no reason.

While I agree the OP is mostly reasonable, I don't understand how you can't see the ironic condescension and hostility in "you are a sinner just like me, and I believe I deserve hell" in a thread about the crappy way some Christians treat atheists.

OP, I do thank you for your discourse. It is important to understand, though, that implying people deserve hell is kind of awful.

I think you are focusing on the wrong thing though. Regardless of what words he uses (and I understand certain words are "triggers" for atheists, like sin and hell), all he meant by that comment was that he doesn't see himself as better or superior to any of you. I think he's trying hard to be kind and humble to everyone just not understanding that certain words sets ppl off.

@Dragonspride1995:

Personally I am not interested in helping you with your book. Please be patient with us with when we veer off topic frequently. That is the nature of an internet forum. Very few threads remain totally on topic for more than a few pages.

I am an atheist. I have already sat through hundreds of Pentecostal and Catholic services. So , it is not that I have not been effectively evangelized to. I have never been raped by a priest or harmed by a pastor. I reject Christianity because no Christian has been convincing enough. I find Christianity irrational and superstitious. No different than any other religious belief system including the most modern Alien Lizard People Conspiracies.

Is your book going to be one of the many handbooks out there for evangelizing to atheists? "5 Big Things We Get Wrong Talking to Athiests" or something? Is your goal to save us?

(January 1, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 6:22 pm)The_Empress Wrote: While I agree the OP is mostly reasonable, I don't understand how you can't see the ironic condescension and hostility in "you are a sinner just like me, and I believe I deserve hell" in a thread about the crappy way some Christians treat atheists.

OP, I do thank you for your discourse. It is important to understand, though, that implying people deserve hell is kind of awful.

I think you are focusing on the wrong thing though. Regardless of what words he uses (and I understand certain words are "triggers" for atheists, like sin and hell), all he meant by that comment was that he doesn't see himself as better or superior to any of you. I think he's trying hard to be kind and humble to everyone just not understanding that certain words sets ppl off.

I get that, which is why I'm being gentle. But that's the thing: it's not about triggers... not even a little bit. If someone who doesn't believe in sin or hell told me I was a sinner who was going to hell, it wouldn't trigger anything. It's not about words; it's about concepts. Christians are people who believe we are all sinners. Fine: you're not superior to me... except that you think you know more about what I deserve or what will happen to me than I do.

And it's extremely condescending to dumb it down to "triggers" when you know perfectly well there are people, and you might be one- I can't remember, who honestly think atheists are deserving of hell. My dad said it to me all the time, and you can bet your bippy it wasn't the words that hurt; it was the fact that he thought I deserved eternal torture.

(January 1, 2017 at 6:04 pm)Dragonspride1995 Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 5:31 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: Honestly, I can’t say there’s clear cut difference between the way they treat me now and the way they did when I was a Christian. Or even the way they treat one another. The Christians I’ve known treat one another like crap and then demand forgiveness. They will sic god on you. “God won’t bless you if you don’t forgive me.” “Satan is the accuser of the brethren.”

Christians who act like this and then hide behind the cross and grace of god, wonder why I laugh when they try to tell me how Jesus has changed their lives.

Yea I've witnessed this myself. Especially from my mom. Its a kinda manipulation tactic isn't it.

Understand, it wasn't the behavior of other Christians that drove me from Christianity. But their behavior did make it easier for me to walk away once I made the decision to do so. In fact, worse than their bad behavior was the syrupy sweet way they'd try to love me back into the church. I didn't know if I was dealing with saccharin or high fructose corn syrup.

(January 1, 2017 at 6:38 pm)The_Empress Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 6:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think you are focusing on the wrong thing though. Regardless of what words he uses (and I understand certain words are "triggers" for atheists, like sin and hell), all he meant by that comment was that he doesn't see himself as better or superior to any of you. I think he's trying hard to be kind and humble to everyone just not understanding that certain words sets ppl off.

I get that, which is why I'm being gentle. But that's the thing: it's not about triggers... not even a little bit. If someone who doesn't believe in sin or hell told me I was a sinner who was going to hell, it wouldn't trigger anything. It's not about words; it's about concepts. Christians are people who believe we are all sinners. Fine: you're not superior to me... except that you think you know more about what I deserve or what will happen to me than I do.

And it's extremely condescending to dumb it down to "triggers" when you know perfectly well there are people, and you might be one- I can't remember, who honestly think atheists are deserving of hell. My dad said it to me all the time, and you can bet your bippy it wasn't the words that hurt; it was the fact that he thought I deserved eternal torture.

Did he say you guys were going to hell though? All I saw was a comment in passing where he said "pastors are sinners, no different from you or I." And then he went on to say he's not better than anyone here.

For my own self, i didn't mean to be "condescending" to you guys when I referred to the words sin and hell being triggers. I just know they are upsetting to some ppl here, and that's all I meant by that. It seems like many things we say are taken as condecending insults, when they are not meant to be that way at all.

(And to clarify, I am not in the group you speak of.)

(January 1, 2017 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Did he say you guys were going to hell though? All I saw was a comment in passing where he said "pastors are sinners, no different from you or I." And then he went on to say he's not better than anyone here.

For my own self, i didn't mean to be "condescending" to you guys when I referred to the words sin and hell being triggers. I just know they are upsetting to some ppl here, and that's all I meant by that. It seems like many things we say are taken as condecending insults, when they are not meant to be that way at all.

(And to clarify, I am not in the group you speak of.)

Let's ask him directly : Dragonspride 1995 - I reject Jesus as my Lord and savior. I reject the idea of one god ( or any gods). Do you think I am going to hell?

This is not a trigger to me. The people dearest to me in my life think I am going to hell . I love and get along with them just fine. It will not hurt me if you do.

(January 1, 2017 at 6:36 pm)chimp3 Wrote: @Dragonspride1995:

Personally I am not interested in helping you with your book. Please be patient with us with when we veer off topic frequently. That is the nature of an internet forum. Very few threads remain totally on topic for more than a few pages.

I am an atheist. I have already sat through hundreds of Pentecostal and Catholic services. So , it is not that I have not been effectively evangelized to. I have never been raped by a priest or harmed by a pastor. I reject Christianity because no Christian has been convincing enough. I find Christianity irrational and superstitious. No different than any other religious belief system including the most modern Alien Lizard People Conspiracies.

Is your book going to be one of the many handbooks out there for evangelizing to atheists? "5 Big Things We Get Wrong Talking to Athiests" or something? Is your goal to save us?

The brining people to Christ is a priority of my life, but for the purposes of this book no.

---

(January 1, 2017 at 6:59 pm)chimp3 Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Did he say you guys were going to hell though? All I saw was a comment in passing where he said "pastors are sinners, no different from you or I." And then he went on to say he's not better than anyone here.

For my own self, i didn't mean to be "condescending" to you guys when I referred to the words sin and hell being triggers. I just know they are upsetting to some ppl here, and that's all I meant by that. It seems like many things we say are taken as condecending insults, when they are not meant to be that way at all.

(And to clarify, I am not in the group you speak of.)

Let's ask him directly : Dragonspride 1995 - I reject Jesus as my Lord and savior. I reject the idea of one god ( or any gods). Do you think I am going to hell?

This is not a trigger to me. The people dearest to me in my life think I am going to hell . I love and get along with them just fine.  It will not hurt me if you do.

As per my beliefs and the teachings of the Bible the only way into heaven is through Jesus Christ. Now if I may ask you a question. Is it moral to censor someone's speech, and stop them from professing their beliefs?

(January 1, 2017 at 7:05 pm)Dragonspride1995 Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 6:36 pm)chimp3 Wrote: @Dragonspride1995:

Personally I am not interested in helping you with your book. Please be patient with us with when we veer off topic frequently. That is the nature of an internet forum. Very few threads remain totally on topic for more than a few pages.

I am an atheist. I have already sat through hundreds of Pentecostal and Catholic services. So , it is not that I have not been effectively evangelized to. I have never been raped by a priest or harmed by a pastor. I reject Christianity because no Christian has been convincing enough. I find Christianity irrational and superstitious. No different than any other religious belief system including the most modern Alien Lizard People Conspiracies.

Is your book going to be one of the many handbooks out there for evangelizing to atheists? "5 Big Things We Get Wrong Talking to Athiests" or something? Is your goal to save us?

The brining people to Christ is a priority of my life, but for the purposes of this book no.

---

(January 1, 2017 at 6:59 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Let's ask him directly : Dragonspride 1995 - I reject Jesus as my Lord and savior. I reject the idea of one god ( or any gods). Do you think I am going to hell?

This is not a trigger to me. The people dearest to me in my life think I am going to hell . I love and get along with them just fine.  It will not hurt me if you do.

As per my beliefs and the teachings of the Bible the only way into heaven is through Jesus Christ. Now if I may ask you a question. Is it moral to censor someone's speech, and stop them from professing their beliefs?

No.

(January 1, 2017 at 4:41 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 1, 2017 at 12:38 pm)Astonished Wrote: My question to the OP, with all due respect and sincerity is, are you seriously ignorant of the realities of what you're asking?

Forcing children to sit through long, boring, sometimes horrifying church sessions.

Telling children they're wicked, dirty, evil, etc.

Hearing them tell you 'You can't change my mind'. The arrogance!

Teaching them that love is conditional. Way to warp their mentality for life.

Managing to be seemingly deluded about how awful people can treat others in the name of their faith. Sickening ignorance.



Seriously, read a book like God is Not Great. Hitchens is much more eloquent than most.

Just wanna point out that this has not been my experience at all, growing up in the faith. Im sorry for/to anyone who has had horrible experiences in the faith as a child. But it is important to point out that there are many who's experiences has been very positive, and it isnt right to group us all into the worst possible scenario. I plan on raising my future children up in the faith as I was, if im lucky enough to have any. and I dont plan on anything that is on that list.

That and I think it is good to remember people were pretty brutal to one another not that long ago.  When the catholic church was so powerful it wasn't unusual to visit horrible revenge on others.  For all the horrible things the catholic church has done through the years it is hard to be sure there wouldn't have been as much or even more of it without the church.  People have been really mean sons of bitches.