(January 4, 2017 at 2:04 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm pretty sure you either didn't understand what the preacher said or you have misquoted what he said. Christians do not always agree on free will or how much we have. It is certain we have some because we are given a choice to make about our eternal destination.

GC

Right! Because a preacher can't be an idiot , right?

(January 3, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Astonished Wrote: I can't post a link yet but it's something I heard in the Seth Andrews "The Thinking Atheist" podcast, the episode where the topic was "Psychoanalyzing God" (this is the only context in which I will ever deign to capitalize that hateful word, and it kills me even now to do it).

So, this preacher calls in to the show and they get on the topic of god communicating clearly to his creation if he wanted them all to be able to understand how to worship properly and that his failure to do so is the reason things are so fucked up.

The preacher said something that made me literally want to vomit in disgust at his stupidity. He said that god communicating his message clearly to every one of his creations would violate their free will.

What. The. Fucking. Fuck.

This whole free will thing already drives me up the wall, but dragging the clarity of a religion's message and its portrayal of its deity into it just destroys it. But when Seth tried to explain to this preacher that free will has less than nothing to do with the clarity of the means of communication between a creator and its creation. The preacher could scarcely have reacted differently than Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel. He literally did not understand how this could be. He literally could not see this thing that I could have pointed out in the first grade.

Someone please tell me I'm not deluded for thinking that religion genuinely decreases intelligence. Please. I'm willing to be a hypocrite and accept something that isn't true at this point as long as it keeps me from crying myself to sleep with how pathetic our species is capable of being.

Actually I've posted something similar.

I don't believe in Freewill but the idea here is the same.

I framed my argument out with the movie The matrix as it's core premise.

Let's say we all now live in the matrix, but living conditions are reversed. In that in the matrix we are living as close to hell as we can be without teetering all the way in. Sin is rampant and the world around us is a cesspool because of it.

Now let's say this life we live this matrix was given to us to create whatever we though we wanted using whatever means we wanted (sin) This fallen world as crappy as it is in places is the ultimate result of very very little obvious oversite from God. Why? because it is meant to reflect who we really are.

Now in the crappy little matrix world enter God/Christianity and all that it promises with "no proof." For Most of you the world goes on. Because that is who you are.

Now Imagine God woke everyone up from the matrix showed them around the real world and all he has done and all he has planned for each of us, and then put them back in the matrix world we created. Could you continue to live this life knowing it was false? that nothing you did here really mattered? Could you continue to be who you are now with out trying to hide yourself under 'good deeds?'

Now pay attention (because here is the part you don't seem to get)

What if... Heaven and Hell were not about morality or deeds??? What if you could not work your way to heaven??
So you spending your life trying to be a good christian was spent in vain, and Jesus casts you into Hell anyway even after all the stuff you had been doing? Would you want to spend the rest of your time wondering what went wrong?

What if this life was about being given enough time to understand your own nature? To understand who you really are. Now, introduce an absolute of God that no one can deny... If you do not come to God unprovoked then your life becomes about earning what you can not obtain, and everyone goes to Hell. As humility and faith are keys to our salvation. Put in an absolute and those keys are no longer needed.

(January 4, 2017 at 5:01 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 1:15 am)Astonished Wrote: Well not to mention the carrot and stick of heaven and hell. I'd call massively stacked coercions a huge violation of free will.

Tell me something mate.  
Who ...........mention the carrot and stick of heaven and hell.............
Religions or God?  

Oh, this saves me the trouble of asking if you're one of those people who actually reads your own holy books or not. Thanks. Time-saver, really appreciate it.

(January 3, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Astonished Wrote: Someone please tell me I'm not deluded for thinking that religion genuinely decreases intelligence. Please. I'm willing to be a hypocrite and accept something that isn't true at this point as long as it keeps me from crying myself to sleep with how pathetic our species is capable of being.

This is one of the paradoxes of religion that believers just can't seem to explain so they shove it in a mental drawer and prefer not to talk about. So Christians for example say that God loves and wants us to know him and yet there is so much confusion and ambiguity about what the truth is. How is this explained? One of the ways certain Christians (mainly Calvinists) come to explain the confusion is predestination, stating that only those who were predestined to be saved will come to understand the true path, so God DID communicate clearly... but only to those he intended to save. And if you question the justice of predestination, they say "who are you to judge God!?"

Another way to explain it is that those who don't adopt the faith of the "true" sect or denomination have certain moral faults that prevent them from seeing the truth. Basically, you're too morally corrupted to perceive the clarity of God's message. How do you become un-corrupted? By adopting the very beliefs you can't understand the truth of in the first place. 

So does religion decrease intelligence? Well, I certainly think it constricts the mind. The etymology of the world religion literally means "to bind" it binds your worldview together. But to me it is binding in another sense, it binds people's minds and holds them in bondage from being able to learn things they wouldn't otherwise explore. There are very intelligent religious people, but I think the full potential of their intelligence is held back by religious thinking that is so often caused by emotional and psychological "hiccups" that keep such people stuck in the religious loop.

I'm always amazed that Christians that argue about preserving free will don't spontaneously combust from the cognitive dissonance. There are dozens of instances in their holy book where god violates people's free will.

Back in the day he used to send bears to maul little children that mocked his prophets, but now that we have cameras and value empricial evidence he's suddenly concerned about free will.

(January 4, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Redoubtable Wrote:

(January 3, 2017 at 11:54 pm)Astonished Wrote: Someone please tell me I'm not deluded for thinking that religion genuinely decreases intelligence. Please. I'm willing to be a hypocrite and accept something that isn't true at this point as long as it keeps me from crying myself to sleep with how pathetic our species is capable of being.

This is one of the paradoxes of religion that believers just can't seem to explain so they shove it in a mental drawer and prefer not to talk about. So Christians for example say that God loves and wants us to know him and yet there is so much confusion and ambiguity about what the truth is. How is this explained? One of the ways certain Christians (mainly Calvinists) come to explain the confusion is predestination, stating that only those who were predestined to be saved will come to understand the true path, so God DID communicate clearly... but only to those he intended to save. And if you question the justice of predestination, they say "who are you to judge God!?"

Another way to explain it is that those who don't adopt the faith of the "true" sect or denomination have certain moral faults that prevent them from seeing the truth. Basically, you're too morally corrupted to perceive the clarity of God's message. How do you become un-corrupted? By adopting the very beliefs you can't understand the truth of in the first place. 

So does religion decrease intelligence? Well, I certainly think it constricts the mind. The etymology of the world religion literally means "to bind" it binds your worldview together. But to me it is binding in another sense, it binds people's minds and holds them in bondage from being able to learn things they wouldn't otherwise explore. There are very intelligent religious people, but I think the full potential of their intelligence is held back by religious thinking that is so often caused by emotional and psychological "hiccups" that keep such people stuck in the religious loop.

I kind of meant in the sense that if someone had an IQ score measured, being religiously indoctrinated would cause a gradual decrease in that until they emancipated themselves from it. But I get what you're saying, and regrettably religion does make a virtue of ignorance and not listening to reason.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 12:29 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I'm always amazed that Christians that argue about preserving free will don't spontaneously combust from the cognitive dissonance.  There are dozens of instances in their holy book where god violates people's free will.

Back in the day he used to send bears to maul little children that mocked his prophets, but now that we have cameras and value empricial evidence he's suddenly concerned about free will.

And that's the other thing, it's impossible not have to subscribe to a myriad of cognitive dissonances by subscribing to religious superstition. Is it possible that it's not a terribly unhealthy thing to have that much of that kind of thing going on in one's brain?

(January 4, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Drich Wrote: What if this life was about being given enough time to understand your own nature? To understand who you really are. Now, introduce an absolute of God that no one can deny... If you do not come to God unprovoked then your life becomes about earning what you can not obtain, and everyone goes to Hell. As humility and faith are keys to our salvation. Put in an absolute and those keys are no longer needed.

Drich,

You proffer that your primitive serial killer Yahweh/Jesus is an "absolute?" Really?  

Then instead of you running away, as usual, and to prevent you from wasting your life on a myth, why don't you try and prove that your BIBLE Jesus actually
existed in the first place, where at this time,  you continue to RUN AWAY from my challenge to you to prove this point!

If you want to put on your "big boy" pants, the challenge to you is within the thread of; " Jesus did not rise from the dead -- 
My debate opening statement," page number 5, post #44.  

Drich, are you going to run away with more pseudo-christian lame excuses, or are you actually going to follow your Jesus' inspired word and defend
your serial killer Jesus in the fact that he did exist?   "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every
thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5) 

Make your fellow pseudo-christians proud, and don't run away because they are watching, so don't embarrass them, along with your serial killer Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)

I will be awaiting your prompt arrival to said thread.


Thank you in advance.



b

(January 4, 2017 at 6:34 am)chimp3 Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 2:04 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm pretty sure you either didn't understand what the preacher said or you have misquoted what he said. Christians do not always agree on free will or how much we have. It is certain we have some because we are given a choice to make about our eternal destination.

GC

Right! Because a preacher can't be an idiot , right?

I've known many pastors but,not the one in the OP, some of them have made comments they wish the could have taken back. Most of the time they know exactly what they're saying and speaking about most are well educated and take seriously their calling. This is why I said a mistake was possibly made. I wanted to open up the possibility of a discussion on what was really said, not one where people call others idiots. I could have done that from the start but where would that have gotten the subject. Guess I should have known that name calling would be the result anyway, it seems that's the typical response here.

GC

(January 4, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 6:34 am)chimp3 Wrote: Right! Because a preacher can't be an idiot , right?

I've known many pastors but,not the one in the OP,  some of them have made comments they wish the could have taken back. Most of the time they know exactly what they're saying and speaking about most are well educated and take seriously their calling. This is why I said a mistake was possibly made. I wanted to open up the possibility of a discussion on what was really said, not one where people call others idiots. I could have done that from the start but where would that have gotten the subject. Guess I should have known that name calling would be the result anyway, it seems that's the typical response here.

GC

Yahweh's Child,


You don't have time to spend within any other thread than this one: "CATHOLICS, heads up if you were abused by your priest!……,"post #86, because
I am addressing your BLATANT PSYCHOTIC STANCE upon your primitive pseudo-christian faith where you can’t even come close in defending it and remain
intelligent looking in the aftermath!  

Now, get your pagan ass back into the discussion shown above and don't be running away like your brethren Drich, Phillip2, Catholic Lady, et al, because
I haven't even started with you and your disgusting faith showing you to be a hypocrite, psychotic, and where you're trying so hard in vain to defend
your brutal and horrific serial killing god, understand?!  WAITING!



m

(January 4, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: This is one of the paradoxes of religion that believers just can't seem to explain so they shove it in a mental drawer and prefer not to talk about.

I love rifleing through mental drawers that atheist like to put around Christians! let see what we can shake out.

Quote: So Christians for example say that God loves and wants us to know him

This is 1/2 correct.
God Agape' (plural) and does want us to know Him. There is a difference between Agape' and love I will assume you know it unless you ask about it.

Quote:and yet there is so much confusion and ambiguity about what the truth is.

Actually their isn't. Just need to know where to find it. And then follow it even if it leads you to question your very foundations of belief.

Quote:How is this explained? One of the ways certain Christians (mainly Calvinists) come to explain the confusion is predestination, stating that only those who were predestined to be saved will come to understand the true path, so God DID communicate clearly... but only to those he intended to save.

This is a very good explanation as it indeed works with the explanation I gave using the word agape' instead of the universal word 'love.' It shows a separation between those in whom God loves with out measure and those He does not.

Quote:And if you question the justice of predestination, they say "who are you to judge God!?"

Good answer but I would like to take it a step further. In that God already knows if left unabated where you or a given soul would wind up. So why not pick the best among that group? Or at least those who would work best together in a society He Himself is Hand building.

Quote:Another way to explain it is that those who don't adopt the faith of the "true" sect or denomination have certain moral faults that prevent them from seeing the truth.

IF one were made to be Calvinist at heart yes... But here's the problem with the Calvinist doctrine.. "understanding" is given over to the individuals to work out themselves.. The problem arises that salvation becomes a work or mental exercise of an individual, and not act or judgement of Christ. Salvation is not something we do or even obtain in this life. All mentionings of the word salvation even in revelation points to a time not yet come. In short we are saved at judgement, and the titles we award ourselves?? completely meaningless. It is Christ and Christ alone who decides who is and is not Christian who is and is not saved. There will be millions saved who have never heard the word Christian before let a lone Jesus. Yet they like some of the Calvinist will share the same salvation.

Quote:Basically, you're too morally corrupted to perceive the clarity of God's message. How do you become un-corrupted? By adopting the very beliefs you can't understand the truth of in the first place. 

That kinda flys in the face of what Jesus says with the whole A/S/K bit... but with calvin's religion who need Jesus right?

Quote:So does religion decrease intelligence?

It does both. it just depends on how far along you are in your understanding of God.

Quote: Well, I certainly think it constricts the mind.

At a point yes. At other it offers discipline.

Quote:The etymology of the world religion literally means "to bind" it binds your worldview together. But to me it is binding in another sense, it binds people's minds and holds them in bondage from being able to learn things they wouldn't otherwise explore.

My poor narrow minded "thinker.." One does not need religion to bind one's thinking. Look how hook line and sinker-ed most of you are when it comes to the all mighty 'science.'

Quote:There are very intelligent religious people, but I think the full potential of their intelligence is held back by religious thinking that is so often caused by emotional and psychological "hiccups" that keep such people stuck in the religious loop.

Oh, the irony.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 3:57 pm)21stCenturyIconoclast Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Drich Wrote: What if this life was about being given enough time to understand your own nature? To understand who you really are. Now, introduce an absolute of God that no one can deny... If you do not come to God unprovoked then your life becomes about earning what you can not obtain, and everyone goes to Hell. As humility and faith are keys to our salvation. Put in an absolute and those keys are no longer needed.

Drich,

You proffer that your primitive serial killer Yahweh/Jesus is an "absolute?" Really?  

Then instead of you running away, as usual, and to prevent you from wasting your life on a myth, why don't you try and prove that your BIBLE Jesus actually
existed in the first place, where at this time,  you continue to RUN AWAY from my challenge to you to prove this point!

If you want to put on your "big boy" pants, the challenge to you is within the thread of; " Jesus did not rise from the dead -- 
My debate opening statement," page number 5, post #44.  

Drich, are you going to run away with more pseudo-christian lame excuses, or are you actually going to follow your Jesus' inspired word and defend
your serial killer Jesus in the fact that he did exist?   "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every
thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5) 

Make your fellow pseudo-christians proud, and don't run away because they are watching, so don't embarrass them, along with your serial killer Jesus! (Hebrews 4:13)

I will be awaiting your prompt arrival to said thread.


Thank you in advance.



b

My 19 year old begal died over the weekend, and i just don't feel like sorting through a bunch a baseless accusation and empty charges trying to figure out what the hell you mean by this that or the other.

I have no problem doing a straight up debate, but seriously little man grow up... serial killer jesus??? really??? and when I ask what you mean... I get more serial killer Jesus.... like I'm supposed to just know how you redefined Jesus, or how you look at some point in time you've twisted or just exactly what you mean...

Just don't feel like untangling your pile of poop at the moment

Maybe if you reword it using common terms or explain what you mean when asked.

Otherwise know sport it is not a 'debate' when you call someone a serial killer and demand that i produce evidence that he is not...

I just don't care to play by your rules, and if that means your other wise saved soul gets lost... Meh, maybe I'll catch the next snowflake on the way down before it melts.