(January 19, 2017 at 8:20 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: You know, I've been watching this thread and I'm seriously wondering, while everyone is comparing the tooth fairy to a magical sky daddy, and the fact that grown adults are crazy if they believe in one but not the other, then why it is perfectly acceptable for small children to believe in the tooth fairy AND a god? Neither the tooth fairy or god are ever "seen" by anyone. But the fact that children are taught to believe in both (by adults, no less!), seems to be okay.

Why has no one thought about that. Ohhh... that's because theists are okay with ANYONE believing in their magical sky daddy. Including small children.

Children are not born into this world believing in anything. Including god AND the tooth fairy. Parents and other adults introduce them, along with the Easter bunny and Santa Claus, while kids are still small enough to be brainwashed into thinking those things are real.

At some point in the indoctrination stage of these mythical creatures, the adult has to spin the story well enough to make the impression of these things last for years. So why then, has it become acceptable for adults to keep spinning the god story to children, long into their teens okay, but you can't keep continuing to do the same thing for the other mythical creatures? Sorry - god doesn't get a free pass on this. He's the same as the other mythical creatures and should be treated as such. At some point, you need to let your kids down gently and tell them that he's just as much a myth as Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

Or, you know, don't teach them any of that stuff in the first place.  Why would you lie to your kid about the existence of anything, on purpose?  My kid never believed in Santa or the Tooth fairy. All the same, we still exchanged money for teeth at night, she still visited santa a couple of times when she was 3 or 4, and of course she gets presents.  It's the surprise of seeing what you get that is the fun, even if you know your folks are responsible, and not a magical creature.

If you did share these myths, I'm not saying that makes you a bad parent or anything, I'm just saying personally I think it's a bit strange that we as a society find it acceptable and even encourage parents to lie to children this way.  It only teaches them to distrust their parents and adults in general.

I understand your point. I was hoping to get a response to this from a theist since they are the ones who seem to be taking offense at their god being compared with the tooth fairy.

Moving beyond this whole "is believing in god like believing in the tooth fairy" shtick, I can see where Chad and CL are coming from in their frustration with many atheists on this forum. To criticize another's belief is one thing, to view another as being quite literally of lesser worth because of a belief is simple bigotry. Many of you think less of CL or Chad or other theists for their beliefs, clearly not everyone or else they wouldn't bother staying, but a sizable portion. By their beliefs, I don't mean any specific tenets, though most are indeed the subject of scrutiny and ridicule; I mean that many atheists think less of them for having the gall to be a theist. Not naming names as you know who you are, but some atheists are profoundly perturbed that theists ---any type of theists--- have the nerve to continue holding theistic beliefs after being presented the atheist viewpoint. They castigate, mock, provoke, insult, and dismiss the theistic perspective, but then take it a step further than that. The claim the theist is broken, irrational, needs to be deprogrammed of what is clearly a form of brainwashing, in order to be a healthy, functioning adult in society. Many of you actively seek to deconvert theists for this very reason. 

Sound familiar? It should, because this is the exact same thinking of Christian apologists. You know, those naive assholes who make a stop around here every once in a while to try and share the good news and transform you into boyscouts for Jesus? Some of you fall for the same mode of thinking that they do, which is an emphasis on right believing as opposed to right living. My best friend for the past year is a believing Jew, a people I'm familiar with since my mom's side is Jewish. She's a wonderful person, I don't think less of her for believing in god, and I bet the aforementioned kind of atheist couldn't name the first thing about what type of beliefs she holds to or how she incorporates her religious beliefs into her life, besides some snarky put down or cookie cutter dismissal about being a theist. She's remarked how this mode of "atheistic apologetics" is almost exclusive to atheist goys. Jewish atheists, who are rather common in Reform Judaism, think about religion from an entirely different angle than ex-Christian and ex-Muslim atheists, because Jews heavily emphasize right living over right believing. You'll meet plenty of Jewish atheists or self-proclaimed "agnostics," but you'll almost never meet a Jewish anti-theist. 

Some ex-Christians turned atheist, particularly those from Evangelical branches, tend to color their perception of religion based on their negative experiences during their upbringing. For those who leave religion out of anger and hurt, they tend to utilize the negative traits of their religion of upbringing as a lens upon which they view all other religions. If you were raised in the type of actual "tooth fairy" religious thinking, which does exist, you used religion as a security blanket to shield yourself from the outside world, probably lived in a religiously strict community where people were ostracized for deviating from the norm, and likely lived in constant state of stifled suppression where people weren't honest with their thoughts and feelings out of fear of being shunned. If that was your experience with religion, it's hardly surprising you might think that's how religion has been for everyone, and commit yourself to convincing theists of how wrong their worldview is using your own experience as a guideline. 

Obviously that's not meant to be a hard and fast rule, but I can't help but notice how anti-theists seem to be engage in an almost missionary like work of their own to convince theists how misguided they are and that they'd be better off ditching religion because, hey, it worked for them! Catholic Lady I'm sure can vouch how often she's been told how much better off she'd be without Catholicism, and I doubt she actually takes offense to that since I'm sure she thinks many would be better off with Christianity and can understand where you would be coming from. But you know what she doesn't do? Insinuate that you're intellectually inferior for being an atheist and treat you like you're broken and that she needs to repair you. I can not say the same for how some others have treated her during her tenure here. Sure, she knew the price of admission in joining an atheist forum, and believe me, she's been more than capable of taking the punishment some of you dole out, she's still here after all. In many ways though, I see her as more intellectually curious than some of the atheists on her who treat her like garbage, because she wanted to know what the perspectives were of people who thought different than her. Some of you will readily admit how little a fuck you could give of learning the perspective of a theist, what use is learning a perspective from somebody that believes in mythical tooth fairies, after all? If that's your attitude, you're subscribing to a mode of thinking far more damaging to your intellectual integrity than something as innocuous as holding a belief in god. You're not here for discussion, you're here to circle jerk in an echo chamber of those whom agree with you and would love nothing better than to reaffirm all day with you about how theists, all theists, are indeed really just that retarded. Why can't they be smart and rational like you, the atheist? 

We all know fundies are particularly common among evangelicals and indeed I used to think a reasonable, likable evangelical I could relate to would be impossible. That was, of course, until I met Kingpin. He had more intriguing insights and was an all-around better poster than many of my fellow snarky, dime-a-dozen, "rational" non-believers. I still consider him a rare find in those communities, somebody who acted in the manner that he believed Jesus would want him to and to truly follow in his footsteps rather than use his religion as cudgel to pummel into submission those who didn't believe correctly and castigate outsiders with wanton abandon, but he proved to me they exist, and my own opinion of the truth value of his beliefs had no bearing on my views of who he was as a person. I respected him not despite his beliefs, but independent of them. 

Some of you don't seem to know how to do this, which is why I call you bigots. Some of you come here to vent your frustrations about your friends, family, and community, who really do subscribe to the "tooth fairy" style of religious belief, which I can sympathize with. However, I can't help but notice that many seem to project the infantilzed version of fundamentalist tooth fairy god worshiping as the standard operating procedure for all theists everywhere. Maybe if you stopped to ask what philosophical positions, what experiences in that theist's life led them to believe what they did, you'd come away with an understanding that not all theists are drooling, intellectual malcompetents, but people with their own story to tell from their own perspective; that they aren't mindless simpletons who all think like a hivemind and can't handle basic disagreements; and perhaps even you would learn that not all theists became theists because it was sledgehammed down their throats by overbearing parents who utilized fear and shame as a constant means of enforcing obedience. If on the other hand, you'd rather sit around all day musing over how irrational and stupid one must be to even consider believing in a god and would rather create a one-size-fits-all psychoanalytical profile of every theist based on the bat-shit insane fundie lady down the road who thinks the devil speaks to her through her television and beats her kids if she suspects them of being gay, well then I don't really know what makes you think you're entitled to not have your own beliefs distorted, mocked, and misunderstood by some asshole apologist preaching about how you're a gluttonous sinner who deserves to burn in hell.

Take a page out of the Jew's book: right living over right believing.

(January 19, 2017 at 8:49 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: to view another as being quite literally of lesser worth because of a belief is simple bigotry.

*sigh*

Let me stop you right there again before I bother with the wall of text that follows. Read my posts if you haven't already. I'm not making this comparison to insult anyone. I don't think of others as lesser in worth because of their beliefs either. I'm saying each belief is about as credible to me. That's not even close to bigotry, nor is it in any way disrespectful to the individual. If you choose to be offended anyway, then that is your problem.

How many more times do I have to clarify this? This is getting ridiculous. Stop putting your own meaning into my words instead of listening to the meaning I have spelled out several times now.

@TS:

Yeah, that's not me. You don't see me spouting off on here anything like the sort. People are free to believe or not. Age shouldn't matter. Being an adult shouldn't matter. One's opinion of someone else being "crazy" for following a certain belief is just that - an opinion. It's not set in stone as a rule to be followed. So, there's that.

No one but me is in control of how I feel. No one else can make me feel mad or sad or angry or crazy. There's no justification to blame someone else for my choosing to react a certain way to something. Unless they hold a gun to my head, I am responsible for my own thoughts, actions and emotions.

If someone considers me crazy for being an adult who believes in the tooth fairy, so what? They aren't paying my way through life so why should their opinion of me matter?

At the end of the day, is any of this going to matter five weeks, months or years from now? If the answer to any of that is no - then there you have it. Move on.

(January 19, 2017 at 8:55 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 8:49 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: to view another as being quite literally of lesser worth because of a belief is simple bigotry.

*sigh*

Let me stop you right there again before I bother with the wall of text that follows. Read my posts if you haven't already. I'm not making this comparison to insult anyone. I don't think of others as lesser in worth because of their beliefs either. I'm saying each belief is about as credible to me. That's not even close to bigotry, nor is it in any way disrespectful to the individual. If you choose to be offended anyway, then that is your problem.

How many more times do I have to clarify this? This is getting ridiculous. Stop putting your own meaning into my words instead of listening to the meaning I have spelled out several times now.

Did I refer to you?

I said those who thought like this knew who they were. If it doesn't apply to you, it's self evident.

(January 19, 2017 at 8:57 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 8:55 pm)Jesster Wrote: *sigh*

Let me stop you right there again before I bother with the wall of text that follows. Read my posts if you haven't already. I'm not making this comparison to insult anyone. I don't think of others as lesser in worth because of their beliefs either. I'm saying each belief is about as credible to me. That's not even close to bigotry, nor is it in any way disrespectful to the individual. If you choose to be offended anyway, then that is your problem.

How many more times do I have to clarify this? This is getting ridiculous. Stop putting your own meaning into my words instead of listening to the meaning I have spelled out several times now.

Did I refer to you?

I said those who thought like this knew who they were. If it doesn't apply to you, it's self evident.

Good. Then do you get where some of us are coming from?

TS, I sure hope my post didn't come off as harsh. It wasn't intended that way. I apologize if it did.

(January 19, 2017 at 9:00 pm)Jesster Wrote: Good. Then do you get where some of us are coming from?

Of course, I'm an atheist who's spent years on atheist communities. I was trying to put my own observations of how certain atheists treat theists with nearly constant disrespect into words as a means to try and help people understand where CL and Chad might be coming from. I can't speak for them, obviously, but I think they can relate to what I said.

(January 19, 2017 at 9:00 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: TS, I sure hope my post didn't come off as harsh. It wasn't intended that way. I apologize if it did.

For anybody wondering "is he talking about me" in my post, the only question you have to ask yourself is "do I think less of people merely for being theists?"

If no, the post doesn't apply to you, if yes, it does.
Don't worry, you're fine.

(January 19, 2017 at 8:20 pm)Nymphadora Wrote: You know, I've been watching this thread and I'm seriously wondering, while everyone is comparing the tooth fairy to a magical sky daddy, and the fact that grown adults are crazy if they believe in one but not the other, then why it is perfectly acceptable for small children to believe in the tooth fairy AND a god? Neither the tooth fairy or god are ever "seen" by anyone. But the fact that children are taught to believe in both (by adults, no less!), seems to be okay.

Because children don't know any better, their mental faculties have not developed to such a degree that they should realize just how ridiculous it all is.  But as they get older, they develop the capacity to reason and they stop believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny.  We would think that an adult who believed in any of those things has something seriously wrong with them.  But for gods, we just let that childhood fantasy continue indefinitely.

It's just pathetic.