Then again I'm a straight up nihilist, so I have license to cop out of everything.

Ok if equating god to the tooth fairy makes theists insecure, lets compare it to Goku from dragonball. Shoryuken!

Said Goku, for some reason

The problem I have with all of this is I just refuse to treat theists with kiddy gloves anymore. Quite honestly I will avoid the topic of religion unless someone else brings it up in real life, most times. But if the conversation comes up and you are not ready to back your side up I will tear you apart like I would anyone else. God is like the tooth fairy in that there exists zero evidence for either. Point blank. Period.

Doesn't your insecurity concerning this issue speak volumes, neo? I think you maybe need to take a long hard look at why you believe what you believe.

(January 19, 2017 at 7:52 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 3:58 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Why are your beliefs deserving of respect and mine are not?  It is my belief that your faith is ridiculous.  That is my actual, sincerely held belief.  I believe "douchebag" is the word you used to describe someone who holds that belief.

Because the not all beliefs have the same content. You cannot compare beliefs apart from their content.

Of course different beliefs have different content.  We're not talking about Nazi beliefs or some cult here in either case.  We're even talking about radically different content.  We're talking about the difference between my belief that all magical thinking is identical vs your belief that your magical thinking, alone, is special.  Now you'll likely take exception to that, but think about it.  You've come to the conclusion that the content of your beliefs is worthy of respect and the content of my beliefs is not.  What mechanism did you employ to do that?  What fair, unbiased system have you developed to judge the content of ones beliefs?  The answer to that is obviously "I used no system.  I just don't like the content of your belief and it is thus not deserving of respect."  So this whole "content" reply is self-serving tripe; a deflection from the discussion.

(January 20, 2017 at 6:39 am)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: Mock my beliefs all you want, so long as you speak the truth.

I KNOW YOU WANNA BELIEVE IT MAN BUT YOU NEVER SAW A TWIX 'HAVING' AN OLD MAN!!!

Did I break your reality yet?!?!?! Gonna cry? Yay!!!

(January 20, 2017 at 8:54 am)LastPoet Wrote: Ok if equating god to the tooth fairy makes theists insecure...

Doesn't make me insecure at all. I feel very secure in my beliefs. Which is why I have 0 need to go around and make fun of everyone else's, or of those who have none.  

But if you asked me if I found it insulting for you to equate the beliefs I hold, to those held by 4 year olds and adults that are legitimately nuts... then yeah, I'd tell you I do. Seems pretty logical that I would. If you want to continue to accuse me of being insecure for this reason despite me telling you otherwise, go ahead I guess. Seems to give ya'll some sense of superiority, so knock yourselves out.

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(January 19, 2017 at 8:49 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: Moving beyond this whole "is believing in god like believing in the tooth fairy" shtick, I can see where Chad and CL are coming from in their frustration with many atheists on this forum. To criticize another's belief is one thing, to view another as being quite literally of lesser worth because of a belief is simple bigotry. Many of you think less of CL or Chad or other theists for their beliefs, clearly not everyone or else they wouldn't bother staying, but a sizable portion. By their beliefs, I don't mean any specific tenets, though most are indeed the subject of scrutiny and ridicule; I mean that many atheists think less of them for having the gall to be a theist. Not naming names as you know who you are, but some atheists are profoundly perturbed that theists ---any type of theists--- have the nerve to continue holding theistic beliefs after being presented the atheist viewpoint. They castigate, mock, provoke, insult, and dismiss the theistic perspective, but then take it a step further than that. The claim the theist is broken, irrational, needs to be deprogrammed of what is clearly a form of brainwashing, in order to be a healthy, functioning adult in society. Many of you actively seek to deconvert theists for this very reason. 

Sound familiar? It should, because this is the exact same thinking of Christian apologists. You know, those naive assholes who make a stop around here every once in a while to try and share the good news and transform you into boyscouts for Jesus? Some of you fall for the same mode of thinking that they do, which is an emphasis on right believing as opposed to right living. My best friend for the past year is a believing Jew, a people I'm familiar with since my mom's side is Jewish. She's a wonderful person, I don't think less of her for believing in god, and I bet the aforementioned kind of atheist couldn't name the first thing about what type of beliefs she holds to or how she incorporates her religious beliefs into her life, besides some snarky put down or cookie cutter dismissal about being a theist. She's remarked how this mode of "atheistic apologetics" is almost exclusive to atheist goys. Jewish atheists, who are rather common in Reform Judaism, think about religion from an entirely different angle than ex-Christian and ex-Muslim atheists, because Jews heavily emphasize right living over right believing. You'll meet plenty of Jewish atheists or self-proclaimed "agnostics," but you'll almost never meet a Jewish anti-theist. 

Some ex-Christians turned atheist, particularly those from Evangelical branches, tend to color their perception of religion based on their negative experiences during their upbringing. For those who leave religion out of anger and hurt, they tend to utilize the negative traits of their religion of upbringing as a lens upon which they view all other religions. If you were raised in the type of actual "tooth fairy" religious thinking, which does exist, you used religion as a security blanket to shield yourself from the outside world, probably lived in a religiously strict community where people were ostracized for deviating from the norm, and likely lived in constant state of stifled suppression where people weren't honest with their thoughts and feelings out of fear of being shunned. If that was your experience with religion, it's hardly surprising you might think that's how religion has been for everyone, and commit yourself to convincing theists of how wrong their worldview is using your own experience as a guideline. 

Obviously that's not meant to be a hard and fast rule, but I can't help but notice how anti-theists seem to be engage in an almost missionary like work of their own to convince theists how misguided they are and that they'd be better off ditching religion because, hey, it worked for them! Catholic Lady I'm sure can vouch how often she's been told how much better off she'd be without Catholicism, and I doubt she actually takes offense to that since I'm sure she thinks many would be better off with Christianity and can understand where you would be coming from. But you know what she doesn't do? Insinuate that you're intellectually inferior for being an atheist and treat you like you're broken and that she needs to repair you. I can not say the same for how some others have treated her during her tenure here. Sure, she knew the price of admission in joining an atheist forum, and believe me, she's been more than capable of taking the punishment some of you dole out, she's still here after all. In many ways though, I see her as more intellectually curious than some of the atheists on her who treat her like garbage, because she wanted to know what the perspectives were of people who thought different than her. Some of you will readily admit how little a fuck you could give of learning the perspective of a theist, what use is learning a perspective from somebody that believes in mythical tooth fairies, after all? If that's your attitude, you're subscribing to a mode of thinking far more damaging to your intellectual integrity than something as innocuous as holding a belief in god. You're not here for discussion, you're here to circle jerk in an echo chamber of those whom agree with you and would love nothing better than to reaffirm all day with you about how theists, all theists, are indeed really just that retarded. Why can't they be smart and rational like you, the atheist? 

We all know fundies are particularly common among evangelicals and indeed I used to think a reasonable, likable evangelical I could relate to would be impossible. That was, of course, until I met Kingpin. He had more intriguing insights and was an all-around better poster than many of my fellow snarky, dime-a-dozen, "rational" non-believers. I still consider him a rare find in those communities, somebody who acted in the manner that he believed Jesus would want him to and to truly follow in his footsteps rather than use his religion as cudgel to pummel into submission those who didn't believe correctly and castigate outsiders with wanton abandon, but he proved to me they exist, and my own opinion of the truth value of his beliefs had no bearing on my views of who he was as a person. I respected him not despite his beliefs, but independent of them. 

Some of you don't seem to know how to do this, which is why I call you bigots. Some of you come here to vent your frustrations about your friends, family, and community, who really do subscribe to the "tooth fairy" style of religious belief, which I can sympathize with. However, I can't help but notice that many seem to project the infantilzed version of fundamentalist tooth fairy god worshiping as the standard operating procedure for all theists everywhere. Maybe if you stopped to ask what philosophical positions, what experiences in that theist's life led them to believe what they did, you'd come away with an understanding that not all theists are drooling, intellectual malcompetents, but people with their own story to tell from their own perspective; that they aren't mindless simpletons who all think like a hivemind and can't handle basic disagreements; and perhaps even you would learn that not all theists became theists because it was sledgehammed down their throats by overbearing parents who utilized fear and shame as a constant means of enforcing obedience. If on the other hand, you'd rather sit around all day musing over how irrational and stupid one must be to even consider believing in a god and would rather create a one-size-fits-all psychoanalytical profile of every theist based on the bat-shit insane fundie lady down the road who thinks the devil speaks to her through her television and beats her kids if she suspects them of being gay, well then I don't really know what makes you think you're entitled to not have your own beliefs distorted, mocked, and misunderstood by some asshole apologist preaching about how you're a gluttonous sinner who deserves to burn in hell.

Take a page out of the Jew's book: right living over right believing.

Thank you for this, again. 

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(January 19, 2017 at 7:00 pm)AceBoogie Wrote:

(January 19, 2017 at 6:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Let me clarify again, in case my message was lost. 

It's not the fact that Tooth Fairy belief is false, that would make me think a Tooth Fairy believer is nuts. It's the fact that the only people who believe in them, in our society, are little children. It isn't a belief that normal adult people in our society hold. In our society, it would take a pretty nutty adult to believe in the Tooth Fairy.  

If Tooth Fairy belief was a belief that normal adult people in our society held, I would see it the same exact way as I'd see Buddhism, or Islam, or Hinduism - I would see it as being false, but would not think there was anything wrong with the people who believed in them.

It's like how in our culture, spitting on someone's shoes is seen as something a weirdo would do. Why? Because it's not a normal thing to do in our society. There might be another culture out there who sees spitting on someone's shoes as a sign of respect. In that case, the person doing the spitting would not be a weirdo, he'd just be another regular person. 

Society/culture matters. In our society, it would be very strange for a grown man or a grown woman to believe in the tooth fairy. So if someone told me they did, I'd think "uhhh ok.... you're kind of a weirdo." Not because the belief is false, but because normal people in our society don't believe in that. 

So when you legitimately equate a belief like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc etc... to a belief that is only held by little kids in our society, it's very insulting to our character, our intelligence, our sanity, etc etc.

The problem is, as I'm sure others have pointed out to you, as an atheist I see belief in the Tooth Fairy, Allah, Yahweh, or whatever else, as being on the same level. They're all backed by the same amount of evidence and all require the same amount of faith. Belief in the tooth fairy "not being a thing" in our society means very little. What about Greek mythology? Once upon a time people truly did believe in Zeus and Aphrodite and all these other gods... but, what, because it's "not a thing" anymore, it's as silly as believing in the tooth fairy?

The only reason people follow religions and the gods therein is because we ascribe really important jobs to these gods (i.e. creating the universe) and since these religions provide answers to unanswerable questions for people searching some type of deeper meaning, they become "a thing." However what society deems normal or abnormal has absolutely no bearing on anything.

Most people in our (American) society are weak willed, fickle and unambitious wastes of talent. I don't really care to strive for what's normal in a society like that, so let's just deal with the facts. The facts are... the same amount of evidence exists for your Yahweh as for my tooth fairy goddess.

I don't think you (or anyone else for that matter) understand the point I'm trying to make here. As I said, I view the belief in Buddha being a God or in Mohammed having spoken to an angel, as being just as false as belief in the tooth fairy.

The difference is society. 

In our society, a perfectly normal person can be Buddhist or Muslim. Because those are normalized beliefs in our society. But belief in the tooth fairy, in our society, is something that only little kids believe in. So if a grown adult says they believe in the Tooth Fairy, that grown adult is probably not quite right in the head. It would take a pretty nutty adult to believe in the tooth fairy in our society. 

I'm not saying this to be mean or disrespectful to the adult that would hold that belief. I'm saying it because it would be true. That person would more than likely not be quite right in the head. That's just fact. ...And not because the belief in tooth fairies is wrong, but because the belief in tooth fairies is something that only children hold in our society. 

If belief in the tooth fairy was some normalized religion though, then that would be a different story, and such person would probably be a perfectly regular person like everyone else.  

I'm not sure how else I can explain this, so hopefully ya'll understand.

(January 20, 2017 at 12:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 20, 2017 at 8:54 am)LastPoet Wrote: Ok if equating god to the tooth fairy makes theists insecure...

Doesn't make me insecure at all. I feel very secure in my beliefs. Which is why I have 0 need to go around and make fun of everyone else's, or of those who have none.  

But if you asked me if I found it insulting for you to equate the beliefs I hold, to those held by 4 year olds and adults that are legitimately nuts... then yeah, I'd tell you I do. Seems pretty logical that I would. If you want to continue to accuse me of being insecure for this reason despite me telling you otherwise, go ahead I guess. Seems to give ya'll some sense of superiority, so knock yourselves out.

Oh no, not superiority, just telling you and others that believe in gods, what I think of it. You take it offensive? That is too bad, but if the way I think makes you shake, then it is insecurity. I am going to tell you how I think, not sugar coat it, make it all polite and dandy. I respect that you are free to believe. You should try also to accept critique of your beliefs.

Perhaps it would help it I gave an example of what would be a fair comparison to God, namely Truth. Consider the following two propositions:

P1: The tooth fairy exists.
P2: Truth exists.

In one trivial respect some smartasses could claim that neither of the proposition’s subject has sufficient empirical evidence to justify belief in it. I challenge these Champions of Reason to justify their self-conceit of being Truthseekers without tangible falsifiable evidence that Truth exists. If there was a tooth fairy, someone could at least, in theory, set a pair of dentures on a mousetrap and catch one. Not so with truth. If truth exists then it isn’t just another thing in a universe full of things. Has anyone seen truth? Distilled it into a test-tube? It’s not even reasonable to suggest that belief in truth is justified only after a sample has been produced under controlled conditions. Truth cannot be isolated. Either it informs everything or it doesn’t. Any comparison between the existence of the tooth fairy and truth is a ludicrous and obvious category error. I question the intellectual integrity of those who deny it.

I take that back. I don’t question it. They dishonest. Why is it that skeptics compare the existence of God to fairies, unicorns, and other fantastic mythological beasts as opposed to the existence of things like truth or personal identity or Platonic Forms or moral principles? I will tell you why. Because their only intention is to make believers seem ridiculous. Douches.

Now it is fine to say that you don’t accept the various logical demonstrations, cosmological arguments, fine-tuning, or design inferences. Let’s have those discussions, but the tooth fairy comparison is just a rhetorical quip whose only purpose is to infantilize and avoid serious philosophical problems. With respect to the human condition, it doesn’t matter one whit whether the tooth fairy exists. But whether or not God exists (or Truth for that matter) has far and wide ranging implications from the problem of universal to the nature of personal identity to moral values. The slightly more reasonable skeptics will say that God is so vague of a concept is to be meaningless. Really? The Christian God has been defined in exhaustive detail by the Church Doctors - Augustine, Anslem, and Thomas Aquinas for a start. So has its more general predecessor, the so-called God of the Philosophers, more broadly defined by Aristotle, Plotinus, etc. Vague? No, you're just lazy.

Yeah, keep on throwing out insults, NS. That makes us want to take you seriously, asshat. I was going to break that down, but I don't like you. I'm not trying to insult CL, but I would be more than happy to insult you all day.