(April 24, 2009 at 12:46 am)g-mark Wrote:

(April 23, 2009 at 5:56 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(April 22, 2009 at 3:32 am)g-mark Wrote: If you knew the problem at hand and it's consequences, would you sacrifice having children to make a difference?

No, but I would limit the number of children I have. Not having children is not the solution. Having less children is.

ok. Didn't China already try this?

China tried to enforce it. I wouldn't. I think changing people's attitudes is the only way to properly achieve something without breaching human rights. If you get enough people to agree to not have more than 2 children then the problem would be reduced.

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Quote:quote='padraic' pid='14807' dateline='1240546148']

Quote:I have very good news for you:humans are nor animals.

Did you mean "NOT"? If so,when did that miraculous change occur?

I have bad news for you:Human beings are indeed animals.That is the scientific consensus and has been for the last couple of hundred years at least.That we happen to be sentient animals capable of self examination has not made us consistently rational or reasonable either as individuals or as a species. Instinct remains our most powerful driving force.

We humans are the most evoluted species of living creatures on earth is most evident and need no
explanations.But calling humans animals has semantically speaking a humiliating understatement and that's why I said that humans are NOT animals.
On the other hand everyone has the right to see himself as he pleases .

Yes

Quote: I'm familiar with the Abrahamic faiths.(I was raised Catholic and have studied both Judaism and Islam)

I'm really glad that you are familiar wit abrahamic faiths but I'm afraid that the commandment of the Bible saying "reproduce and multiply and fill all of the earth" was written on a page ripped off your Bible so you have no knowledge about it.

Quote:The two most populous nations on earth (China and India*) are not now,and have never been followers of Judaism,Christianity or Islam.

What you are saying about China and India is by no means contradictig what I'm saying about the religious influence on Birth control especially when it comes to Muslims.
The fact that even the post communist-economy China succeeds in the policy of birth control proves more than any reference to the past and to Confucianism that you have to combine a totalitarian regime with a secular minded population, as are the Chinese of today, in order to control the population growth of a country.

One can speculate about all kind of democratic ways to control the population but it is obvious that even when it comes to implement "green" policies,which are "kid games" as compared to birth control, the world is deeply divided and impotent in finding international accepted solutions.

Old Malthus spoke about the earth not being capable of feeding all humans but in his time Nature was perrenial and not on the verge of the destruction as we see it coming under our very eyes.
I don't see how man will get away with the oncoming cathastrophy due to the growth of population in the next ,say 50 years, without most violent mass-killing events.

(April 24, 2009 at 12:57 pm)josef rosenkranz Wrote: We humans are the most evoluted species of living creatures on earth is most evident and need no explanations.

Exactly how does one measure species that are "more" evolved? If you are speaking of actual evolutionary steps then you are incorrect, as the bacterium genome is much much larger than the human genome.

If you are speaking of advantages over other creatures then I would still beg to differ. We have very bad eyesight when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, we aren't that fast, and we don't really have much going for us in terms of defense / attack. The only thing that distinguishes us is our advanced self awareness, but even this isn't unique. Most animals have some form of self awareness, even if it is limited.

Anyway, one of the key things in the theory of Evolution is that all living things are related, and every living thing today is at the end of its individual branch. We are all related, the plants and the animals. We certainly aren't plants, I'll give you that, but we are animals. You find this fact "humiliating", I find it incredible and more beautiful than anything any religion has said about us. The fact that we are all related isn't something to be ashamed about, it is something to admire.

Quote:But calling humans animals has semantically speaking a humiliating understatement and that's why I said that humans are NOT animals.

Calling humans animals is a not matter of opinion,but factually correct under the scientific system of classification uses universally. That you find it humiliating is irrelevant to the fact.

Your position is an argument from personal incredulity, a form of argument from ignorance. viz" I don't like it,therefore it's wrong"

The argument that humans are the most thoroughly evolved animals on the planet is an unproven assertion, dependent on one's definition of " evolved". IF you mean "most sentient", probably.If you mean best adapted,not even close. We are perhaps the most maladapted species.We have not adapted to our environment,we have adapted the environment to enable us to survive and often in ways which are unsustainable and damaging to the environment.

To accuse me of ignoring biblical directions to breed is an ad hominem attack,and untrue. I have a scholarly disagreement with your position and have given my reasons.That you disagree is fine,that's your right. That you rely on emotionalism and insults are indicators of willful ignorance.I have nothing more to say to you on this matter.

(April 24, 2009 at 8:52 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Exactly how does one measure species that are "more" evolved? If you are speaking of actual evolutionary steps then you are incorrect, as the bacterium genome is much much larger than the human genome.

If you are speaking of advantages over other creatures then I would still beg to differ. We have very bad eyesight when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, we aren't that fast, and we don't really have much going for us in terms of defense / attack. The only thing that distinguishes us is our advanced self awareness, but even this isn't unique. Most animals have some form of self awareness, even if it is limited.

Anyway, one of the key things in the theory of Evolution is that all living things are related, and every living thing today is at the end of its individual branch. We are all related, the plants and the animals. We certainly aren't plants, I'll give you that, but we are animals. You find this fact "humiliating", I find it incredible and more beautiful than anything any religion has said about us. The fact that we are all related isn't something to be ashamed about, it is something to admire.

Great post Adrian, and the last paragraph was actually quite poetic, and and I agree.

(April 24, 2009 at 9:37 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Great post Adrian, and the last paragraph was actually quite poetic, and and I agree.

Cheers. I just adapted it from what I usually say in debates.

Hehe, sort of paraphrasing yourself? Hard not to sometimes - when you've been talking about these things for a while I mean lol.

Agree with Adam, we are maybe not the most evolved. It's quite a relative thing to say. But we are the most intellegent species, and with that intellegence should we be able take control over our own evolution.

Quote:But we are the most intellegent species,

We believe that to most probably be the case,but it is by no means certain.

The whole area of intelligence is under constant study and the very definition under constant review. The understanding of animal intelligence,especially of birds,had been turned on its head in the last two decades or so.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_intelligence


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence

Quote:and with that intellegence should we be able take control over our own evolution.

Non sequitor. Our intelligence infers no such thing.No more than a genius IQ infers a brilliant outcome in any activity.


PS" it's 'intelligent' and 'intelligence'

(April 25, 2009 at 5:17 am)Tiberius Wrote: Cheers. I just adapted it from what I usually say in debates.

Careful, that's frowned upon by some

Kyu