(January 25, 2017 at 11:44 am)vorlon13 Wrote: At best, all but one of the world's religions are false religions, so, phoenix31, what does the world need with that ??

In my mind, accepting the truth bears a heavier burden of responsibility to discover for oneself what is appropriate and inappropriate action. But nobody is required to bear that burden of responsibility. So if a majority of people decide they want to be entirely self centered and live in a ruthless society, there is nothing to stop that from occurring.

Or even on a smaller scale, if people want to rape and steal and murder, if they can do so without getting caught, they will. Whereas the majority of religion generally teaches peaceable actions toward others with a divine consequence for disobedience, and helps reign people in from doing whatever they want.

wut ?

Religion is the most lucrative scam in history.

(January 25, 2017 at 12:01 pm)phoenix31 Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 11:44 am)vorlon13 Wrote: At best, all but one of the world's religions are false religions, so, phoenix31, what does the world need with that ??

In my mind, accepting the truth bears a heavier burden of responsibility to discover for oneself what is appropriate and inappropriate action. But nobody is required to bear that burden of responsibility. So if a majority of people decide they want to be entirely self centered and live in a ruthless society, there is nothing to stop that from occurring.

Or even on a smaller scale, if people want to rape and steal and murder, if they can do so without getting caught, they will. Whereas the majority of religion generally teaches peaceable actions toward others with a divine consequence for disobedience, and helps reign people in from doing whatever they want.

And if societies live by these values, they will die out from internal issues faster than societies that live by more successful values. Society is self-correcting that way. On a smaller scale, people who can perform those acts without getting caught will only be punished by divine means if there is a divine being, which changes nothing in this life anyway. Believing that there is a divine being does not suddenly make divine punishment real in order to punish them. People who want to rape and murder are also going to attempt that no matter what the dominant religion says. Meanwhile, if we focus on actually improving our society to catch them without relying on divine means, we might actually be able to do something about it now.

(January 25, 2017 at 12:00 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 11:51 am)phoenix31 Wrote: If there is no God then there is no divine consequence for actions. Power hungry people can take advantage of others and get away with things like murder and genocide as much as society allows them to. I'm not saying atheism itself leads one to ill will, but that some people are predisposed to a thirst for power and will pursue these ends if they believe they can without consequence, whereas the majority of religious teaching is centered around peaceful actions and instills fear of divine consequence for wrongdoing. So possibly those brought up with this worldview are less disposed to things like murder and genocide.

You weren't listening to me. You are setting up a belief in these divine consequences as the only solution, and I am telling you that there are other (more immediate) solutions. Humanity may have flaws, but we are a social species that is able to work together to smooth out our individual flaws. Your scenario only spells our doom if we were all lonely hermit savages, which we are not. With that in mind, why is a fear of divine consequence (which we see the religious ignore anyway) suddenly better than our own social consequences that we are able to call into question in this life instead of waiting for the afterlife?

I see that working together toward a common good with logic and decency for the rules of society could work well for society but I don't know that it would give a reason for personal integrity. I don't know that a majority of people would restrain themselves from behavior which we would consider immoral if they did not think they would get caught. On a small scale, if one can lie and cheat others and get away with it, and it benefits them personally, why not?

I think 'god' is a pile of shit but I have never committed a crime.  The main reason is that I don't want to go to jail.  Has nothing to do with any fucking divine retribution.

Besides, in most of the bible god is nothing but a murdering fuckhead so who needs him?

(January 25, 2017 at 11:55 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Power hungry people can take advantage of others and get away with things like murder and genocide as much as society allows them to.

Yeah.... and what did fucking god do to stop them?

I was trying to make the point that a sincere belief in divine consequences for actions, or a sincere belief that humans are worthy of dignity because God created them might deter more people from seeking power and taking advantage of others.

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(January 25, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think 'god' is a pile of shit but I have never committed a crime.  The main reason is that I don't want to go to jail.  Has nothing to do with any fucking divine retribution.

Besides, in most of the bible god is nothing but a murdering fuckhead so who needs him?

But I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about people who might be deterred from stealing because it's wrong, or committing a crime because it's wrong, and is that beneficial? I'm contrasting that with the idea that someone who doesn't believe in God can easily say, "I don't care what you consider wrong, because I don't consider it wrong," and then do whatever he or she wants to do, which is not necessarily beneficial.

I'm not saying anything about the God of the Bible makes any sense. I'm just asking if believing that crap keeps people in line, is it beneficial to society.

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(January 25, 2017 at 12:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote:



Religion is the most lucrative scam in history.

Yeah, you have a point there. I just wonder if there are worse scams that are more detrimental to society than religion. People tend to get annoyed bringing up Hitler, but that scam, for instance.

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(January 25, 2017 at 12:05 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: wut ?

What don't you understand?

(January 25, 2017 at 12:15 pm)phoenix31 Wrote: I see that working together toward a common good with logic and decency for the rules of society could work well for society but I don't know that it would give a reason for personal integrity. I don't know that a majority of people would restrain themselves from behavior which we would consider immoral if they did not think they would get caught. On a small scale, if one can lie and cheat others and get away with it, and it benefits them personally, why not?

If that person can ignore the consequences of a secular society, what makes you think they won't also ignore the consequences of a religion? They seem to be able to get away with it just as well if there is no god. If there is a god, does the religious level of the society suddenly change the difficulty of getting away with it in this life? We've seen just how well people can justify crime while they are religious, as well. It happens all the damn time.

It pretty much comes down to this:

A: No god, secular society; uncaught criminals get away with it
B: No god, religious society; uncaught criminals get away with it
C: God, secular society; uncaught criminals get away with it, but not in next life
D: God, religious society; uncaught criminals get away with it, but not in next life

So how about we focus on ways of fucking catching them now? Religion does not deter people who want to break the law or punish the uncaught until the next life, if there even is one at all.

(January 25, 2017 at 11:16 am)Jesster Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 11:05 am)phoenix31 Wrote: What do you say to those who make the argument that more atrocities have been committed by atheists than by religions?

Even if I accepted that claim (which I don't), atheism absolutely 100% cannot lead you to any conclusion or action for good or for ill. How could it? How, also, could religion have improved on the actions of the atheists who have committed atrocities any better than other secular methods, especially considering the sea of atrocities committed by the religious?

I am also wondering why you don't accept that claim. Just out of curiosity, because it seems to me that they have a point.

(January 25, 2017 at 12:33 pm)phoenix31 Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 11:16 am)Jesster Wrote: Even if I accepted that claim (which I don't), atheism absolutely 100% cannot lead you to any conclusion or action for good or for ill. How could it? How, also, could religion have improved on the actions of the atheists who have committed atrocities any better than other secular methods, especially considering the sea of atrocities committed by the religious?

I am also wondering why you don't accept that claim. Just out of curiosity, because it seems to me that they have a point.

Yeah, I'm gonna need some evidence for this one.